Where was ALPA?

[JungleJett]

Show me where I said management was not accountable. You will NOT find it...anywhere. Be cautious about making assumptions. It seems clear that you feel that unions are without any sort of accountability. And that is the root of the problem and until you fully understand it, you and the profession will continue to suffer and when you peel back the layers of responsibility, when you get through the layers of management abuses..you will find people like you. Ignorant and stoic...and without work. Enjoy the fog.

Your silence speaks volumes.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Show me where I said management was not accountable. You will NOT find it...anywhere. Be cautious about making assumptions. It seems clear that you feel that unions are without any sort of accountability. And that is the root of the problem and until you fully understand it, you and the profession will continue to suffer and when you peel back the layers of responsibility, when you get through the layers of management abuses..you will find people like you. Ignorant and stoic...and without work. Enjoy the fog.

Why don't you talk about what you can control. Your own actions.....

Your silence speaks volumes.

Am I obligated to you?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Am I obligated to you?

No, you're not obligated to him. But for someone who likes to pontificate from his high horse, you're hurting you're own case as if there's something to hide.

You say Jungle Jett makes excuses for his poor pathetic management. I'm guessing the management you go to work for isn't all that great either. Is that better than making excuses for management? To show up to work so your Boss can cut your pay and build a third home?

 

[Raoul Duke]

it is no more acceptable for a boss to cut wages to build a 3rd home than it is for labor to demand unrealistic wages and bankrupt a company (i.e. UA circa 2000)

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

it is no more acceptable for a boss to cut wages to build a 3rd home than it is for labor to demand unrealistic wages and bankrupt a company (i.e. UA circa 2000)

Not sure UAL2000 wages bankrupt UAL.... there was a significant drop in air travel summer 2001. In addtion, the UAL BOD brought in Tilton, a BK man, to take the company into and out of BK.

The pilots accepted concessionary wages....

 

[JungleJett]

Show me where I said management was not accountable.

Again, you cannot answer a simple question. Show me where I have said that management was NOT accountable. You attributed those words to me..now prove to me where I said it. You cannot..

Do as I say....not as I do. Typical considering what you represent.

Costco has spines on sale...pick one up.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Again, you cannot answer a simple question. Show me where I have said that management was NOT accountable. You attributed those words to me..now prove to me where I said it. You cannot..

Do as I say....not as I do. Typical considering what you represent.

Costco has spines on sale...pick one up.

Are you ok?

 

[ualdriver]

it is no more acceptable for a boss to cut wages to build a 3rd home than it is for labor to demand unrealistic wages and bankrupt a company (i.e. UA circa 2000)

You're going to have to explain that one to me, Raoul. Could you please post ANY verifiable information, including the math you used to arrive at that statement, to back up your point? Please show where the difference in UAL pilot total compensation pre Contract 2000 and post Contract 2000 was the monetary amount that was the difference between solvency and insolvency for UAL inc.

 

[XTW]

Hey Rez,

How come you will not answer the simple question regarding your employer?

X

 

[JoeMerchant]

You're going to have to explain that one to me, Raoul. Could you please post ANY verifiable information, including the math you used to arrive at that statement, to back up your point? Please show where the difference in UAL pilot total compensation pre Contract 2000 and post Contract 2000 was the monetary amount that was the difference between solvency and insolvency for UAL inc.

What was it that your former MEC Chairman Dubinsky said...."We don't want to kill the golden goose, we just want to choke it until it gives it's last egg"....The pensions choked the legacy carriers....

 

[Lear70]

What was it that your former MEC Chairman Dubinsky said...."We don't want to kill the golden goose, we just want to choke it until it gives it's last egg"....The pensions choked the legacy carriers....

Not.

Pensions were funded just FINE through investments until the big, late 90's stock boom, and the senior management teams at many of the legacies thought it would be great to raid those funds, just take them down to the government-required levels, and use the cash they pulled out as bonuses. After all, it was THEIR management that had resulted in the big increases in stocks and bonds at companies the world over, right?

Of course, it was the dot com bubble, it burst, and the pensions ended up being 50% or so underfunded in many cases. Interestingly enough, most of those had come back to only being 20-30% underfunded before the bankruptcy filings were complete.

Re-funding the pensions to required levels would not have bankrupted the companies, either. Nor would an average pilot salary of $150k for an F/O, $225k for a Captain, which is what the average salary for a DAL/UAL pilot was when that contract was signed (not many were going to make that $300,000 figure, something like 10% of the seniority list in any given year projected for the next 12 years after DOS).

The average ticket price would have had to increase between $15 and $20 to cover BOTH the increased pilot salaries AND the pensions. This equates to a roughly 5-7% increase in the cost of a ticket.

Now, if you add in increased pilot costs and pensions, same for flight attendants, gate agents, ground handlers, mechanics, plus doubling of gas prices for the planes, crap contracts for new planes and ground equipment paying high prices and high interest, increased gate leases expense, caterers raising prices, it all resulted in a NET increase of cost above 50%, while airlines priced their products lower and lower in this insane "war of attrition" in which NO ONE was going to be the winner, due to the government-allowed "repeated bankruptcy" cycle.

THAT'S what caused the bankruptcy filings. Corporate greed and an inability to raise prices when your competitors don't either, because you'll lose your customers to them, even though that other airline is pricing at a loss, just to drive you out of the market.

The price of automobile gas roughly doubled during that same time. The price of utilities for your home went up by 30%. The price of groceries increased about 15%. The price of cars went up by about 20%.

Everything costs more over time... except, evidently, plane tickets, which the flying public expects to somehow remain static with increasing costs to produce it.

Until the airlines are MADE to price their product to cover cost, airlines are not a sustainable business model. Period. Anyone that thinks otherwise is delusional or doesn't understand the simple, basic economics of free-market business.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Lear,

You hit the nail on the head. WE are not the problem! WE are/were not that big of a cost burden to the company. WE cost less than $10 per passenger for BOTH of us. IE. Using a 757. 184 seats X 80% load factor X 2 legs per day X 14 days per month= $24729/month or $296755/year for capts and $16486/month or $197836/year for Fos. I used a 60/40 split on the $10. This works out for all aircraft in our fleet and would be a tremendous raise if we just charged at the boarding door $10 for our services. As you well know, Joe hates all Major pilots with the Delta pilots in a very special spot. It is our fault and we are the cause of all problems in the industry.

 

[ualdriver]

What was it that your former MEC Chairman Dubinsky said...."We don't want to kill the golden goose, we just want to choke it until it gives it's last egg"....The pensions choked the legacy carriers....

Same statement for you, Joe. Feel free to provide ANY verifiable information, with the math to back it up, that shows that the difference in pilot compensation between the old contract and Contract 2000 was the difference between solvency and insolvency for UAL inc. Maybe you can call Raoul and between the two of you, you can up with something. I won't hold my breath as I am fully aware that your anger toward ALPA clouds your judgment.

 

[PCL_128]

What was it that your former MEC Chairman Dubinsky said...."We don't want to kill the golden goose, we just want to choke it until it gives it's last egg"...

Sounds good to me. We could use a few more Captain Dubinskys in this industry.