Where do Ameriflight pilots end up?

[kfishgirl9]

I tried to stay away, but I gotta' bite on this pay raise issue...

While I stongly support a pay increase for all my former "freight dog" comrades, to use it as a solution to AMF's turnover situation is flawed. AMF is by essence a "stepping stone" for the vast majority of their pilots. Sure, there are a few who stick around, but not nearly enough to keep the place running. For most of us who left, it involved an initial pay cut so that we could move on to a position of higher prestige (big shiny jets, air conditioning, clean hands, flight attendants, etc). And yes, ther is a higher future earning potential.

But tell me honestly, if AMF offered you the same earning potential as an airline, would you still stick around, flying the old freighter, enduring your friends and family askng you if you are going to be a "commercial" pilot some day? I wouldn't. I'd still go for the prestige. Sure there may be a few who would stay, but would it be enough to keep the place going?

I have always found that a pay increase is a bad motivator. Sure the people who are there feel the initial boost and they are initially happier, but it fades in about 6 months. You also eventually have a new generation of pilots come in and the "new" pay increase is actually their base line. In time, they too will think a pay raise is a good idea. Eventually, you have a system of increasing cost for the same productivity...

Since Dogs Bollocks has been at AMF since I was first there (I think I know you), he can probably remember that the pay cale has actually been bumped up twice since we started, yet here we are again...

No, I really feel that AMF should accept itself for what it is regarding pilot retention (actually, they have always known it in BUR), but they could help a little with job enrichment such as improving schedules and more FOs.

Okay, this was waay too long. I'm done. Fire away...

I know this thread has been declared dead, but I just wanted to comment on the pay issue, because it's something that interests me. Pay is supposed to be occasionally raised. Just because a couple of pay raises have been issued in the past doesn't mean they shouldn't continue as the economy changes.

The issue isn't, at least to me, trying to compare regional airline pay to cargo pay, but cargo pay to cargo pay. As far as I've been able to determine, Ameriflight pays under the average pay for 135 cargo companies nowadays. They may offer decent maintenance and jumpseat privileges, but other cargo companies offer that as well.

From what I understand, Freight Runners Express starts pilots around $32,000 a year for 99 drivers. Aero Charter starts their pilots at $165 / a day for C310 and C402 drivers. Now, the latter may be high for the normal pay scale, but starting pilots at a few thousand dollars more a year, or offering them the choice between getting per diem and getting a hotel for the day seems reasonable to me. It wouldn't be something that would be incentive enough for a pilot to stay forever, but it would be incentive enough to stay longer... meaning slowing turnover a bit.

 

[RefugePilot]

To reply to toobdrvr's remark about flying shiny jets, and responding to the "are you someday going to fly commercial?" question. I still get asked that question after I tell someone I fly for mainline UPS.
I guess even after all these years you never do get respect as a freighter.

Maybe to the public, but we in aviation know you have made it.

AMF could use a pay raise to make them more competitive. The $1000/yr for the 99 upgrades does not cut it. The step up in pay when you get to the metro is nice, and it can happen in a year or so if you are willing to move. However the annual increase in metro pay each year does not cover inflation. This is a message to the pilots that AMF has no motivation to keep you, get your time and move on.

Even with a pay increase, not many will stay for long, simply because the schedule sucks. There is no amount of money that would make me want to be gone from home 16 hours a day/5 days a week for my entire career.

The best thing AMF could do to retain pilots is hire more of them. It is amazing how much better the attitude is around the SLC base is when we have 4 day work weeks. Being able to be in your home on a weekday without having to call in sick, makes the schedule so much better. It may take a little longer to get to the "1000 hrs of turbine PIC", but your not really building time fast anyways, but a little QOL in the mean time would help.

I'll also throw in another vote for better jump-seat privileges.

 

[Captain Morgan]

On the metro out of CVG, how fast would you rack up the turbine pic? I've always wondered. Thanks.

 

[RefugePilot]

On the metro out of CVG, how fast would you rack up the turbine pic? I've always wondered. Thanks.

Pretty fast from what I have heard. It is the one place at AMF where you can build flight time comparable with a 121 operator.

 

[flyburg]

Well,

Back to the original question, I know of one guy that went to KLM. An American, not one of the buy hours types.

greetings

 

[Morettis]

PS

Home every night doesnt count when you arent done untill 830PM and have to get up at 4AM. You might as well be sleeping in a motel.

If you'd stop trying to do girls in Provo and find one local being home every night makes a big difference!

 

[EatSleepFly]

It is the one place at AMF where you can build flight time comparable with a 121 operator.

I wouldn't say it's the only place. I flew 70-75 hours a month my last 4 months in SLC and that isn't counting what I flew as a training captain. Every base has at least a couple runs that are decent flight time, some have several. It just depends on what you fly and your seniority.

The way I see it, it's not a race. Take the job for what it is and enjoy the ride. Guess what happens when you hit 1000 turbine PIC? Nothing. It just means your resume can get added to the stack of thousands of others. I'm no expert, but I don't even think it makes one all that competitive, in the grand scheme of things. It's who you know and how you set yourself apart from the rest that counts.

 

[EatSleepFly]

If you'd stop trying to do girls in Provo and find one local being home every night makes a big difference!

Yeah, do what Morettis does and get a girl at your layover!

Plus it could be a fun challenge to find a girl with a full set of teeth and parents who aren't siblings at some of the places we fly to! :nuts:

 

[time builder]

The best thing AMF could do to retain pilots is hire more of them.

That's the problem, turnover has always been high at AMF, the difference is that now days its hard to find someone with over 1200 hours who wants to fly a cheiftain for what AMF pays.

A few years ago, people were beating down the door to fly a lance, with the hope that some day, they might fly turbine powered equipment. Times have changed.

Retention wasn't a big issue until they started having a hard time filling classes.

 

[Freight Dog]

Don't be bashing Lances! I started at AMF in a Piper Lance. After all, it's not every day you get to fly something with a serial number 2.

On a serious note, regardless of what aircraft you're assigned to at Ameriflight, you will learn to be a CAPTAIN - confidence in your abilities, go, no-go decisions, common sense, etc.

Not to mention, you will never be as sharp on instruments as you will be at Ameriflight.

During my time at AMF (2000-2001), people were leaving for SWA and Skywest mostly. I've seen individuals leave for other places.

I left for Island Air, and in a way, I wish I had stayed at Ameriflight.

But even now at Aloha, I ran into several Ameriflight alumni.

Bottom line, you'll find Ameriflight alumni everywhere, at every airline, at just about every fractional, you'll see them around SoCal moving on to reputable charter operators, you name it.

One thing I'd say is sad is really that with the regionals scooping up guys with wet commercial tickets, AMF will be having a tough time finding pilots.

 

[T Heavy]

if AMF wants pilots to stick around, they need to pay at least as much as Regional captains make (in my opinion, at least 50K for turboprops).
quote]

Great Lakes yr 1 Beech FO : 15$/hr x 75 x 12 = 13500

Great lakes yr 1 Beech CA : 26 x 75 x 12 = 23400

23400+13500= 36900

1st year Amflight Metro/1900- $40,440!

Just remember AMF'ers when you see the Lake's 1900's, you're making more than both pilots combined!

Be Safe out there!
Barnyard

That is comedy...

Eatsleep said it best, if you come here do your training, do your job and just be patient you will find something that you like and likes you. In the mean time I still enjoy the look on other pilots face when I tell them I fly the Metro single pilot. Just never thought I would see the day of 6-9 months upgrades to it????????

Heavy

 

[time builder]

Sorry, didn't mean to strike a nerve on the Lance. Really guys, AMF does make you a better pilot, I agree 100%, but the "hard road" isn't exactly the most marketable thing for enticing new pilots. I'd like to see more pilots there too, not just to get guys on 4 day work weeks and improve moral, but also for a sustainable reserve.

I'd refer someone, but I only knew a couple guys with over 1200 hours without an airline job, but they weren't instrument proficient. They wouldn't survive training, let alone pass the sim eval.

 

[woog315]

Is staffing getting really tight at Ameriflight? In the last few days they have run ads on climbto350 for PIC positions on every aircraft they fly (except the emb120) in multiple domiciles.

I'd like to apply there in 6 months or so, but I don't think I will unless the pay improves some.

 

[Morettis]

Is staffing getting really tight at Ameriflight? In the last few days they have run ads on climbto350 for PIC positions on every aircraft they fly (except the emb120) in multiple domiciles.

I'd like to apply there in 6 months or so, but I don't think I will unless the pay improves some.

My advice, after flying freight for almost 3 years now, and as a metro captain, don't waste your time waiting to get 1200 hours. Go to a regional now. By the time you get to 1200 hours, you'd be almost to 2nd year pay which is better than 1st year 99 pay, and you'll be at 2nd year seniority which actually means something at an airline. Seniority counts for jack ******************** at AMF, the only thing you get is to pick which craphole you fly to for the day...

If I had to do it over, I'd have gone to a regional as soon as I could have.

 

[RefugePilot]

the only thing you get is to pick which craphole you fly to for the day...

Rock Springs is taking its toll on your enthusiasm.....

 

[EatSleepFly]

I'd like to apply there in 6 months or so, but I don't think I will unless the pay improves some.

Good, go to Flight Express, make $35k, and enjoy trying to get that fractional job you want while flying a 210.

Or come here, make more your first year than you would at a regional. Be willing to move around, and upgrade to a Metro/1900 within a year. After three years here, you've got enough turbine PIC to get what you want, and all three of those years, you've made more than you would spending three years as an F/O logging switch b!tch time at [insert $hithole regional here].

What exactly do you think you're entitled to with your 600 hours anyways?

The overwhelming majority of people who have moved on to the bigger and better things mentioned early on in the thread are people who stuck around for a few years and gotten enough experience to make it worthwhile. A year or two isn't going to cut it. When have you ever heard of anyone with 1200 hours going to a regional then on to a major in under three years? That's right, you haven't. You won't here either.

Like anything, what you get out of your time at AMF is a direct result of what you put into it. But hey, if we don't pay good enough for your holy experience level, feel free to join the other lemmings at the regionals making $19k a year.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Good, go to Flight Express, make $35k, and enjoy trying to get that fractional job you want while flying a 210.

Cheap shot. How about "Go to Flight Express, make $43k your first year, upgrade to the baron around 6 months, make $46k your second year, if you don't first get a job flying an MU-2, Metro, 99, or Bandit at another cargo company."

If I lived out west, I would have gone to Ameriflight. I would probably have gotten in bigger equipment faster, and I would certainly have made less money in doing so. As it was, I went to Flight Express and now I'm chasing the kerosene PIC dream as well. Ameriflight is by all accounts a good company, and I don't need to slag it to know that I made the right decision for myself. I will say this: I've had a lot of jobs both in and out of aviation. All told, FLX has been the best of them.

 

[EatSleepFly]

Wasn't meant to be a cheap shot at your company, I've heard they are great to work for. I was simply making a point. Sorry to offend.

 

[Boris Badenov]

s'okay. I just hear often about how "dead end" flying a 210 is. That rankles when you know it's not true. I know at least one guy who went from initial 210 training to MD-80 in about 3 years (you out there yzf?).

Anyway, sorry I got my back up. Let's return to discussing the wonderful well-lit places freight dogs can end up!

 

[RefugePilot]

Wasn't meant to be a cheap shot at your company, I've heard they are great to work for. I was simply making a point. Sorry to offend.

They weren't always a great company. I had a slot in school with them a year before I started with AMF, but another opportunity came up instead.

I heard about long hours, questionable MX, and pilot morale problems. They were having trouble getting and keeping pilots, but 40k+ a year is probably solving a lot of those issues.