When will Pilots learn:

skypine69

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How about all the calls to scheduling trying to call in sick and having the scheduler them that the flight will cancel. Why doesnt the media get a hold of those and play those? Or play the call of a pilot calling in unfit and being told he has to talk to the CP? (read: intimidation)
 

QOL_is_great:)

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How about all the calls to scheduling trying to call in sick and having the scheduler them that the flight will cancel. Why doesnt the media get a hold of those and play those? Or play the call of a pilot calling in unfit and being told he has to talk to the CP? (read: intimidation)
It's time for every company to use an automated DNIF reporting system. No verbal pressure from some sh*thead who sits at a desk while pilots are out doing their job.
Maybe Congress can make that happen as they make changes to better serve the paying public. It's time Congress puts more pressure on the companies to uphold their end.
 

Jar Jar

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From a pilot's perspective - you could not have asked for a better CVR transcript to outline the problems within the regional airline industry.

You're right, everything we do is scrutinized when we screw up. Its about time for the professional aviators in the regional business to once again be treated like mere humans. Every regional out there asks its crews to trudge through the same slop of mud. Under the current circumstances, you will have more of these tragedies continue to occur until something is done to improve the working conditions of regional pilots.

My boss says I can only get sick 12 days a year. Beyond that I have to choose to not feed my family or go to work sick.
 
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johndt

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She's just starting a trip. If she calls in sick she's probably forbidden from using her jumpseat privileges. She makes less than $20K/yr. How is she going to pay for a hotel for the four days or so of her scheduled trip? That policy is yet another way that people are forced into working while they're sick.

I have -no- problem saying something like that on the CVR. She was put in an awful situation and that situation contributed to a lot of deaths -- people should know that.
 

SSDD

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How do you know that her cold, contributed to a lot of deaths?????
 

johndt

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How do you know that her cold, contributed to a lot of deaths?????
Her illness is not the cause of that crash, but it is certainly a contributing factor. We work in a crew environment. If she had been sharp, well-rested and healthy, she would have done a better job -- period.

Her illness adversely affected her performance, and that contributed to the accident chain -- period.
 

brokeflyer

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If she had been sharp
she woulda jammed captain america's throttles forward instead of raising the flaps in the middle of a stall.....

but a healthy body wont fix a 250 hour wonder woman.
 

mitsdriver

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Everything they say and do etc.. is put under a microscope- especially if there is an .




http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-07-27-buffalo-plane-crash_N.htm?csp=34




SKIPPY


I think most of us can relate to her situation. I think most of us have to admit to that we've flown sick at one time or another just so as to not to miss out on a paycheck. Especially during that stages of our career when we make peanuts and live from paycheck to paycheck. I don't blame her for what she did. (Or more accurately, had to do.) She was just trying to pay her bills and get by. Skippy, if you never had to to what that poor gal did. consider yourself one of the lucky few.
 

lionflyer

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she woulda jammed captain america's throttles forward instead of raising the flaps in the middle of a stall.....

but a healthy body wont fix a 250 hour wonder woman.
She had more than 250 hrs. I think she had around 1600.
Anyways, her being sick was a contributing factor. We've all been there whether we want to admit it or not. It still seems to me that she saw the airspeed but went "Ahhhh" instead of saying something I dunno like "AIRSPEED"! It's a mistake that a lot of first time FO's make. They don't say anything when they need to. The CA's don't know everything guys. He/she is a CA because of seniority nothing else. Don't let them kill you! It's a 2 crew ship.
 

rigger

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She had more than 250 hrs. I think she had around 1600.
Anyways, her being sick was a contributing factor. We've all been there whether we want to admit it or not. It still seems to me that she saw the airspeed but went "Ahhhh" instead of saying something I dunno like "AIRSPEED"! It's a mistake that a lot of first time FO's make. They don't say anything when they need to. The CA's don't know everything guys. He/she is a CA because of seniority nothing else. Don't let them kill you! It's a 2 crew ship.

Neither of these two should have been flying a 172 let alone a 121 flight with peoples lives at stake.....they allowed the airspeed to bleed off 57knots in 30 seconds then pulled when the shaker went off then pulled right thru the pusher.....no conversation about hey push the stick or increase power......They want to be treated like a professional then they should act like it! If tired call fatigued, if sick call sick......my family and yours deserve this type of professionalism! NOT THERE TYPE!!!!!
 

flyboyzii

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Neither of these two should have been flying a 172 let alone a 121 flight with peoples lives at stake.....they allowed the airspeed to bleed off 57knots in 30 seconds then pulled when the shaker went off then pulled right thru the pusher.....no conversation about hey push the stick or increase power......They want to be treated like a professional then they should act like it! If tired call fatigued, if sick call sick......my family and yours deserve this type of professionalism! NOT THERE TYPE!!!!!
Yea, we had a guy do that mmmmmkkk. He is no longer employed mmmmmk. Supposedly, that isn't why he was "asked to resign." There were "other circumstances" for his resigning. He was a good guy, good pilot but didn't get along with Mgt. He had a target on his back. You have to play by Mgt's rules or they WILL get you. This gal was (in my opinion) working sick because: A.) She most definitely needed the money and B.) Didin't want to "raise any flags" with mgt. I see it all of the time. Business as usual. I hate it that it happened. It sucks.
 

BrickTop

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Yea, we had a guy do that mmmmmkkk. He is no longer employed mmmmmk. Supposedly, that isn't why he was "asked to resign." There were "other circumstances" for his resigning. He was a good guy, good pilot but didn't get along with Mgt. He had a target on his back. You have to play by Mgt's rules or they WILL get you. This gal was (in my opinion) working sick because: A.) She most definitely needed the money and B.) Didin't want to "raise any flags" with mgt. I see it all of the time. Business as usual. I hate it that it happened. It sucks.


Don't underestimate the leveraging power of FATIGUE. You are in control. During a past event when I told my company that I'm dialing the local FSDO and registering a complaint regarding being threatened for calling off fatigued the tone changed real quick. DON'T do it. Its "YOUR" call PERIOD. Don't ever let some revolving door employee or the fear of punishment push you into something you have spent far more energy and life committing to than their 10.00hr job in scheduling. It is your right and duty to determine when "you" want to stop. Period. Period Period.
 
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front9

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Shortly before their aircraft crashed into trees, the two crew members on Corporate Airlines Flight 5966 were joking with each other, discussing co-workers they didn't like and how it would be nice to eat a Philly cheese steak. The accident killed the crew and 11 of 13 passengers.
The conversational distractions, coupled with the fact that the pair were trying to land their sixth flight of the day after more than 14 hours on the job, were contributing factors that led to the plane's crash. The National Transportation Safety Board yesterday blamed the Oct. 19, 2004, crash on the crew's failure to follow proper procedures in preparation to land the plane in Kirksville, Mo.

The pilot, Kim Sasse, 48, and co-pilot, Jonathan Palmer, 29, ignored guidance about when and at what speed to descend the plane on its path to the runway, joking and cursing at one another while the plane's warning system alerted them of the rapidly approaching ground below, investigators said.
"I was extremely disappointed in what I heard" on the cockpit voice recorder, acting NTSB chairman Mark Rosenker said. "From the beginning to the end, it was unprofessional."
Safety experts said the accident showed how increased workloads and limited rest periods can impair crew performance. The NTSB recommended yesterday, for the second time in 12 years, that the Federal Aviation Administration update its work rules for pilots.
"Human beings are going to make errors when they are tired," said Duane Woerth, president of the Air Line Pilots Association, the nation's largest pilots union.
As major airlines struggle financially, Woerth said, they are squeezing more hours out of pilots to contain costs. Pilots used to be able to negotiate shorter shifts as part of their labor agreements, he said. But as several major carriers, including United Air Lines, Delta Air Lines, Northwest Airlines and US Airways, have filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, the agreements are being thrown out and more pilots are being scheduled for the maximum 16-hour days, he said.
David A. Castelveter, spokesman for the Air Transport Association, which represents the airline industry, said existing FAA work rules "ensure a safe environment both for our crews and the flying public. This isolated incident does not appear to draw those rules into question."
Smaller carriers, such as Corporate, which now operates as RegionsAir, now fly one of every five passengers, compared with one of seven in 2000. Major carriers increasingly contract out short-hop flights to those lesser-known airlines, which operate under the banner of the major airline's regional service.
The crew of Corporate Airlines Flight 5966, flying under the American Airlines American Connection flag, was originally scheduled for eight flights on the day of the crash. The crew flew three flights the day before the accident and was given the federal minimum eight-hour rest the night before. The eight hours of "rest" comprises the time it takes to get to a hotel, eat dinner and shuttle back to the airport the next morning. After arriving at the hotel the night before the accident, investigators said, the crew ate sandwiches prepared by the co-pilot and headed to bed.
On the day of the accident, the crew woke shortly after 4 a.m. to arrive at the airport by 5:15 a.m. Two of the eight originally scheduled flights were canceled because of poor weather, but the grueling schedule was legal according to Federal Aviation Administration rules. The FAA limits pilots to 16 hours on duty and eight hours of operating an aircraft in a given 24-hour period. The FAA also requires pilots to have eight hours of rest between shifts, but the rules have exceptions and can become complicated depending on different flight schedules.
Investigators said that under British duty rules, the pilots of the twin-turboprop aircraft would have ended their day after nine hours on the job and would not have flown the Kirksville flight.
The FAA proposed changing its rules in 1995 to give pilots 10 hours of rest instead of eight hours and to reduce the number of duty hours to 14 instead of 16. The rules were never adopted because the airline industry was unable to reach a consensus, spokeswoman Alison Duquette said. She added that the agency would look at the NTSB's recommendation.
"I am most concerned -- no, paranoid -- about the pressure for profits and productivity that JetBlue and others are trying to get even more hours in a single duty day," Woerth said. He claimed that JetBlue, whose pilots are not union members, was trying to get around the eight-hour limit on pilots' flying hours.
JetBlue spokeswoman Jenny Dervin said the airline received a temporary exemption in May allowing some of its pilots to fly more than the limit as part of a study on pilot fatigue. She said the exemption was not part of an effort to squeeze the most out of crew time for the carrier.
"We want to make sure pilots are flying at their peak times, not only for performance issues but to enhance their quality of life," Dervin said. "It's time for a fresh look at how we schedule pilots."


By Sara Kehaulani Goo
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 25, 2006; Page A02

Safety experts said the accident showed how increased workloads and limited rest periods can impair crew performance. The NTSB recommended yesterday, for the second time in 12 years, that the Federal Aviation Administration update its work rules for pilots.
Maybe third times a charm???
 
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Genital Leech

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she woulda jammed captain america's throttles forward instead of raising the flaps in the middle of a stall.....

but a healthy body wont fix a 250 hour wonder woman.
Exactly. She didn't cause it, but she directly contributed to it and put the nail in the coffin. Come on HR 3371.
 

AvroJockey

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she woulda jammed captain america's throttles forward instead of raising the flaps in the middle of a stall.....

but a healthy body wont fix a 250 hour wonder woman.
I don't know what her intent was, but if she believed there was a tailplane stall from ice this is a correct recovery procedure (reduce power and retract flaps). She did ask the "Captain" before retracting them. That being said, a tailplane stall from flaps usually happens right after you've selected more flaps.

Other than the aforementioned, my argument would be with the lack of proper training in stalls. Many airlines teach stalls like you were doing them in a C172, in the actual aircraft. We're flying jets in simulators...let us teach an Approach and Landing Stall, I don't know, during approach and landing!!! When I worked for XJ, they changed their program to teach stall recovery in appropriate phase of flight. This was hugh, because you get all sorts of things happening, including GPWS/TAWS barking at you, and having to fly a missed or departure procedure after recovery.

Train the way you fly, fly the way you train! Use the simulator, or make your pilots do clearing turns in the sim while your at it!
 
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