When to make a full instrument approach?

[bobs98tlr]

PT and all...(If it requires one)??

When not in radar coverage and or instructed to do so by ATC???

I have my instrument but this is one of those deals where if you dont use it you forget it, plus i wasnt tought to much about this anyways and was just currious.

Also what acronim do you use for your pre-landing check list?
I use GUMPS/WRIMTIM

W- Wx
R- Radio set (tower, ground, approach, ect..)
I- Identify the station/localizer
M- Minimums (hight)
T- Time (time from outer marker to DH)
I- Inbound course set in Nav

BTW: Any other quick tips for Instrument flying would be nice.
M- Missed approach procedures

 

[minitour]

Full Procedures....no radar contact, no communications, when you request and get approved or when instructed to.

Before Landing....GUMPPSS
Gas
Undercarriage (gear)
Mixture
Prop
Power
Seatbelts
Switches (Lights)

The weather and shtuff is all part of my approach brief. If I'm doing my before landing check that early, that sucks....or if I'm getting the weather just as I get ready to pass the FAF, I'm screwed.

For briefing the Approach:
MARTHA
Missed Approach (The navaids/radials that need set for the miss as well as the initial heading/altitude...if it's a climbing right turn to 3,000 then climb to 4,000 then direct to XYZ, I want to know "climbing right turn 3,000" off the top of my head)
Radios (Obvious)
Time (Obvious)
Headings (This should be changed to "courses" I think...you could be way off on "headings" just due to wind, but this is my approach "precession" check)
Altitudes (Obvious)

I also go across the briefing strip at the top as part of my "initial" briefing.
Once I hear "expect vectors ILS 32" or "expect VOR 18" or whatever, I pull the plate, put it in the clip and look at the stuff across the top. First thing I do is set my primary nav in Nav 1's "backup". Second think I do is check the ATIS/ASOS/AWOS. If I don't have the visibility to land, there's no point in shooting the approach...I might as well tell approach that I need to hold to wait for the vis to come up. After that, if the vis is good, then I'll go through this:

Finish the rest of the "strip" up top. Set Nav 2, Com 2 (Tower in the "current" and Ground in the "ready" side), ADF if needed. If I'm already on vectors, I'll switch the Navaids over and ID them and set the radial/course in the OBS/HSI. Another thing I want to see here is the MDA/DH/DA/HAA/HAT. If DH is 250' HAT and the cielings is vv100 and 1sm, I know it's going to be dicey getting to the runway. At that point, I can give Flightwatch a call and see if they've had any PIREPs or any indications that the number might be closer to 250'. From there, I just move into the MARTHA thing....

If the visibility is right on legal/not so legal to land, then I'll put it in Com 1 so I can listen all the way down the slide (once I get kicked over to tower). If it's reporting 1/8th, I might as well start the miss now...ask for a hold or whatever...depending on fuel.

The best "quick tips" I can give you for IFR stuff is:
1. FLY THE AIRPLANE! At all times fly the airplane. On vectors for an approach and don't have it set up yet, no problem. Did they just turn you final? Tell them, "sorry, but I need another minute or two, I'll take vectors for the re-sequence" or "I can take the turn and the clearance but I need a turn in the hold before I can proceed in bound"...whatever it takes to ALWAYS fly the airplane. Work with ATC to make sure you're ready to go when they are.

2. GET AHEAD OF THE AIRPLANE. If you get ahead of the airplane (not of yourself) and know that "if I do this, then this will happen so I can do this and that will happen so I can do that then..." then the scenario in number 1 won't happen and you'll always be FLYING THE AIRPLANE.

3. If you're on a descent or vectored descent on vectors for an approach, trim the airplane for 500'/min descent, pull out the plate and set up the approach then. No sense in waiting. Get it set up when your workload is lessened. You don't have to hold altitude now, right? You just need to know when to start a level off, so put the bug at the altitude you're going to. You've only gotta keep heading and keep the greasy side down...less workload, more time to screw with radios. (Gets back to No 2 which gets back to No 1)

...basically everything that I do and that I teach is geared towards flying the airplane and not letting it get ahead of you. Seems to work so far.

-mini

 

[Lead Sled]

When to do a full instrument approach procedure...PT and all...(If it requires one)??

Although, in the training environment, you do a lot of full procedures; in the real world, they're seldom done. (I don't think that I've had to do more than a handful in the past several years. And yes, I've shot my share of approaches.) It's usually more expedient for ATC to simply give you vectors to the final approach fix. It will normally be extremely obvious with ATC expects you to perform the entire procedure - for example when they clear you to the IAF prior to clearing you for the approach.

I highly recommend that all of you low-time IFR pilots get yourself a copy of Instrument Flying by Taylor. It's one of the best books out there on how to fly IFR in the real world (not the "training world") and how to work the system. While you're at it, get a copy of Weather Flying by Buck. Read them once quickly, then a second time with a highlighter. You'll learn a lot about how it's really done.

'Sled

 

[milflyboy]

If the visibility is right on legal/not so legal to land, then I'll put it in Com 1 so I can listen all the way down the slide (once I get kicked over to tower). If it's reporting 1/8th, I might as well start the miss now...ask for a hold or whatever...depending on fuel.

If you are past FAF it doesn't matter if RVR goes below. All that matters is if you can see the RWY (Flight vis ok).

 

[Lead Sled]

If the visibility is right on legal/not so legal to land, then I'll put it in Com 1 so I can listen all the way down the slide (once I get kicked over to tower). If it's reporting 1/8th, I might as well start the miss now...ask for a hold or whatever...depending on fuel.

Why would you want to do that? When it comes to 121/135 what Milflyboy said is correct. Under part 91 you're totally legal to take a "look see". All that matters is what you can see when you get to the bottom of the approach. Granted, if the vis has gone south on you, you'll most likely end up having to miss. But you never know.

'Sled

 

[minitour]

If you are past FAF it doesn't matter if RVR goes below. All that matters is if you can see the RWY (Flight vis ok).

You sure about that? I'm talking pt 91 stuff not 121/135.

Why would you want to do that? When it comes to 121/135 what Milflyboy said is correct. Under part 91 you're totally legal to take a "look see". All that matters is what you can see when you get to the bottom of the approach. Granted, if the vis has gone south on you, you'll most likely end up having to miss. But you never know.

Which is fine, if there's just "visibility" being reported, I can always say "well the required vis for the approach is 1/2 and I could see the end of the runway so clearaly I had (a mile, two miles, whatever)". But if RVR is being reported, why do I want to take a chance at getting busted. Sure, maybe I can see to the end of the runway, but RVR is the be-all-end-all. Not something I'm willing to put my certificates on the line for.

Honestly, if the forecasts are that questionable, I'm not going. I don't have anywhere that I have to be (not flying any paying pax yet) that isn't within driving distance if the weather is forecast that low.

If it's something that just happens (forecasts are wrong a lot) and RVR is being reported, I can try to "work with Tower" *wink wink*, but most likely, I'd rather just hold and wait for it to go back up. I always make sure there's holding fuel and alternate fuel and reserves to back that up.

I do it more as a "double safety thing". Why go down, not see anything, then shoot the miss. I'd rather have fun doing circles in a hold than start sweating on a minimums miss and end up hitting a mountain or such. Now I know that if I just fly the procedure correctly, I won't have that problem, but how many other people have said, "oh it's no problem, I'll just go missed...no big deal *smack*". I'd rather not be one of those.

But that's just my opinion on safety of flight. Others like the "take a look" method...personally, I'd rather get the time in a hold, collect my thoughts and then if I want to take a peak if it's still questionable...then I'll go for it.

-mini

 

[Lead Sled]

Which is fine, if there's just "visibility" being reported, I can always say "well the required vis for the approach is 1/2 and I could see the end of the runway so clearaly I had (a mile, two miles, whatever)". But if RVR is being reported, why do I want to take a chance at getting busted. Sure, maybe I can see to the end of the runway, but RVR is the be-all-end-all. Not something I'm willing to put my certificates on the line for.

Remember, you said that we're talking Part 91. It is legal under Part 91 to take a "look see" and you're not going to put your certificates in jeopardy for doing so.

(The same principle applies for takeoffs under Part 91, but most guys wisely won't attempt 0/0 takeoffs. Personally, I want to see a quarter mile off of most instrument runways - you got to be able to see a few centerline stripes or the lights.)

Granted, if all three RVRs (where available) are reporting visibilities below minimums, then I wouldn't get my hopes up but there's nothing wrong with taking a look - if your skills are up to it. I can't tell you how many times I've done that and ended up being able to land.

I'm talking from the perspective of over 30 years of earning a living sitting in the left seat. Those who know me, know that I don't play games when it comes to stupid stunts like busting minimums. That being said, in day-in-day-out operations, an honest to goodness missed approach is a realitively rare event at most airports. Sure it happens, but frequently, when things are reported hovering around minimums (or less) guys are still able to get in; and to do so legally. Under those conditions, a telephone call to the tower will let you know what's going on and if guys are getting in.

'Sled

 

[nosehair]

PT and all...(If it requires one)??

When not in radar coverage and or instructed to do so by ATC???

To answer your question about "PT and all", ya hafta do a full PT except when being radar vectored to final, or you are cleared on a published transition which says "NoPT".
Also, if you are holding on the Final Approach Course, when you are cleared for the approach, the last turn in your hold becomes your PT. If you are ready to begin your final descent at that time, you can continue straight-in, however, you may make another turn for your PT if you need time to configure or descend.

 

[bobs98tlr]

Thanks everyone for clearing that up for me. Some good advice as well.

 

[minitour]

Remember, you said that we're talking Part 91. It is legal under Part 91 to take a "look see" and you're not going to put your certificates in jeopardy for doing so.

Right, but I mean if RVR is reporting below mins, then just because I break out and see the other end of the runway (maybe a mile long or more) I still can't land. In this case, RVR could get me busted for landing below mins, even though I could clearly see across the field. I'm not talking about getting busted for shooting the approach. I'm talking about busting for landing. Hell, part 91, I can go missed and back down the glide slope all day long if it's 0/0...just can't land.

Granted, if all three RVRs (where available) are reporting visibilities below minimums, then I wouldn't get my hopes up but there's nothing wrong with taking a look - if your skills are up to it. I can't tell you how many times I've done that and ended up being able to land.

You can't legally land if RVR is reporting below mins...at least that's how it was always laid out to me. Flight visibility over-rules tower visibility, but RVR over-rules "flight" visibility. Maybe I misunderstood you here.

I'm talking from the perspective of over 30 years of earning a living sitting in the left seat. Those who know me, know that I don't play games when it comes to stupid stunts like busting minimums.

I understand and I see where you're coming from with the "take a look" idea. If it's a reported visibility from tower, then yeah...I'll probably go down and take a look (depending on the approach, runway, lighting, day or night, how long I've been at it, and other variables). If it's an RVR issue, then I'm gonna hang out in a hold unless I can't (picking up ice, running on fumes, whatever) until either the RVR goes up or I have to leave the hold and head to my alternate.

But like I said, if it's forecasted to be that low...I'll hop in the Dodge and wish I was in the Cessna...

JMHO

-mini

 

[Lead Sled]

Right, but I mean if RVR is reporting below mins, then just because I break out and see the other end of the runway (maybe a mile long or more) I still can't land. In this case, RVR could get me busted for landing below mins, even though I could clearly see across the field. I'm not talking about getting busted for shooting the approach. I'm talking about busting for landing. Hell, part 91, I can go missed and back down the glide slope all day long if it's 0/0...just can't land...You can't legally land if RVR is reporting below mins...at least that's how it was always laid out to me. Flight visibility over-rules tower visibility, but RVR over-rules "flight" visibility.

Minitour...
Thanks to the miracle of cut & paste, I've inserted the appropriate exerpts from the FAA's website. I've highlighted the appropriate passages:
"§ 91.175 Takeoff and landing under IFR.

(a) Instrument approaches to civil airports.

Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, when an instrument letdown to a civil airport is necessary, each person operating an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, shall use a standard instrument approach procedure prescribed for the airport in part 97 of this chapter.

(b) Authorized DH or MDA. For the purpose of this section, when the approach procedure being used provides for and requires the use of a DH or MDA, the authorized DH or MDA is the highest of the following:

(1) The DH or MDA prescribed by the approach procedure.

(2) The DH or MDA prescribed for the pilot in command.

(3) The DH or MDA for which the aircraft is equipped.

(c) Operation below DH or MDA. Except as provided in paragraph (l) of this section, where a DH or MDA is applicable, no pilot may operate an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, at any airport below the authorized MDA or continue an approach below the authorized DH unless—

(1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, and for operations conducted under part 121 or part 135 unless that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;

(2) The flight visibility is not less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach being used; and

(3) Except for a Category II or Category III approach where any necessary visual reference requirements are specified by the Administrator, at least one of the following visual references for the intended runway is distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot:

(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below 100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also distinctly visible and identifiable.

(ii) The threshold.

(iii) The threshold markings.

(iv) The threshold lights.

(v) The runway end identifier lights.

(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.

(vii) The touchdown zone or touchdown zone markings.

(viii) The touchdown zone lights.

(ix) The runway or runway markings.

(x) The runway lights.

(d) Landing. No pilot operating an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, may land that aircraft when—

(1) For operations conducted under paragraph (l) of this section, the requirements of (l)(4) of this section are not met; or

(2) For all other part 91 operations and parts 121, 125, 129, and 135 operations, the flight visibility is less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach procedure being used.

(e) Missed approach procedures. Each pilot operating an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, shall immediately execute an appropriate missed approach procedure when either of the following conditions exist:

(1) Whenever operating an aircraft pursuant to paragraph (c) or (l) of this section and the requirements of that paragraph are not met at either of the following times:

(i) When the aircraft is being operated below MDA; or

(ii) Upon arrival at the missed approach point, including a DH where a DH is specified and its use is required, and at any time after that until touchdown.

(2) Whenever an identifiable part of the airport is not distinctly visible to the pilot during a circling maneuver at or above MDA, unless the inability to see an identifiable part of the airport results only from a normal bank of the aircraft during the circling approach."

Please show me where RVR is even mentioned. What is mentioned is Flight Visibility. In other words, if you got the vis from your seat you can land.

'Sled

 

[Swerpipe]

Please show me where RVR is even mentioned. What is mentioned is Flight Visibility. In other words, if you got the vis from your seat you can land.

'Sled

Hi Sled,

You are absolutely correct. The only problem is that since flight visiblity forecasts or reports are not issued, when you are flying Part 135 or Part 121 and you are about to cross the FAF, you need to have the report of RVR or visibility be at or above the minimum that applies to flight visibility because otherwise you are not legal to shoot the approach. Once inside the FAF and you get to DH or MDA then the flight visibility is controlling. This is all for Cat 1 for Cat 2 and or 3 the RVRs are controlling. So RVR is not mentioned but for Part 121 or 135 it is controlling even for Cat 1 approaches (need to be at or above minimum for dispatch and for crossing the FAF inbound)

 

[Lead Sled]

Hi Sled,

You are absolutely correct. The only problem is that since flight visiblity forecasts or reports are not issued, when you are flying Part 135 or Part 121 and you are about to cross the FAF, you need to have the report of RVR or visibility be at or above the minimum that applies to flight visibility because otherwise you are not legal to shoot the approach. Once inside the FAF and you get to DH or MDA then the flight visibility is controlling. This is all for Cat 1 for Cat 2 and or 3 the RVRs are controlling. So RVR is not mentioned but for Part 121 or 135 it is controlling even for Cat 1 approaches (need to be at or above minimum for dispatch and for crossing the FAF inbound)

Swerpipe...
That is correct; however, this discussion pertains to Part 91 operations only. I think that who ever explained this to Minitour was confusing the Part 121/135 and Part 91 requirements. Under Part 91, you are indeed allowed to start the approach, regardless of the weather reports (or lack of the same) and, if you get to the DH/MDA and have the appropriate visual references you are legal to land.

'Sled

 

[HMR]

Mini,
FWIW- Lead Sled has more time inside the FAF on low vis approaches than I have total time. If you ever have the pleasure of hanging out with him (I have)- bring a notebook.

 

[Swerpipe]

Part 91 World

Swerpipe...
That is correct; however, this discussion pertains to Part 91 operations only. I think that who ever explained this to Minitour was confusing the Part 121/135 and Part 91 requirements. Under Part 91, you are indeed allowed to start the approach, regardless of the weather reports (or lack of the same) and, if you get to the DH/MDA and have the appropriate visual references you are legal to land.

'Sled

You are right Sled. Hey about weather reports, correct me if I'm wrong but the only weather report needed Part 91 is the airport's altimeter setting or the altimeter setting for an airport authorized for the IAP.

 

[Lead Sled]

You are right Sled. Hey about weather reports, correct me if I'm wrong but the only weather report needed Part 91 is the airport's altimeter setting or the altimeter setting for an airport authorized for the IAP.

That's correct, you don't need any weather per se, just an altitmeter setting.

'Sled

 

[minitour]

That's correct, you don't need any weather per se, just an altitmeter setting.

'Sled

Thanks for clearing it up man...I always wondered where they got the RVR thing...

So...I guess technically if the required vis was 1/2 and the runway was 5,000' and you landed....all you'd have to say is "saw the end of the runway", right?

-mini

 

[Lead Sled]

One More Time - SLOWLY

So...I guess technically if the required vis was 1/2 and the runway was 5,000' and you landed....all you'd have to say is "saw the end of the runway", right?

Mini...
You keep on trying to make this overly complicated. (I can't believe I said that after reading my entire answer. ) I guess that you what you said was correct; however I want you to understand that the only end of the runway that you have to see is the approach end, not the departure end.

When operations are being conducted under Part 91, all you need is an appropriate altimeter setting in order the initiate the approach and descend to either the DH or MDA.

In order to continue the descent below the MDA or DH you must be (Reference 91.175):
1. Continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers. This is to prevent pilots from lingering at the DH or MDA, hoping to catch a glimpse of the runway in time to chop the power and drop like a brick. It also prohibits the pilot from continuing an approach below the MDA or DH if he loses sight of the runway environment at any time after descending below the MDA or DH

2. The flight visibility must not be less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach being used. This is the part that allows Part 91 operators to take a look see. However, the FAA will more than likely take a dim view if a pilot claims that his inflight visability was significantly better that what the tower was reporting. This isn't a license to cheat the system, just an acknowledgement that conditions can and do vary somewhat from location to location.

3. Assuming you arrive at the MDA or DH at a position and attitude where you won't have to put on an airshow if you continue the descent to the runway, you must have at least one of the following visual references for the intended runway is distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot:

(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below 100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also distinctly visible and identifiable.

(ii) The threshold.

(iii) The threshold markings.

(iv) The threshold lights.

(v) The runway end identifier lights.

(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.

(vii) The touchdown zone or touchdown zone markings.

(viii) The touchdown zone lights.

(ix) The runway or runway markings.

(x) The runway lights.

Simply put, when you arrive at the MDA or DH, you look up and if you can see any one or more of the above listed items and you are legally allowed to continue the approach to the runway. When it comes to low vis approaches, they are definately easier at night. The various approach and runway lights are easier to pick out. Once you've got those in sight you're good.

Again, when it comes to landing, the restriction is flight visibility and that is determined by the pilot, not the tower. However, the same cautions previously mentioned as to the use of flight visability apply here as well.

'Sled

 

[BHMFr8Dog]

When to make a full instrument approach?


Remembering back to the CFI days...
When NOT to execute a PT...

S - Straight In (to approach course)
H - Holding pattern in lieu of PT
A - DME ARC to FAF
R - Radar vectors to FAF
P - Published NoPT route

Don't have an AIM with me to reference the para numbers, sorry.

 

[bafanguy]

Mini,


A good source of info on this particular FAR/subject is in "Amendment 91-173" that was issued when this FAR appeared with Change #42, circa 1980. It's part of the ton of paper stuff that comes with changes to the paper edition of Part 91....pages of small print...looks like you wouldn't want to read it, but it's important. I don't know if you can get it online, but if you can, it'll answer a lot of questions about the FAA's intent and thought behind this FAR.

They also put out one when Part 121 was amended covering this same subject.

Hope this helps.