When is US Air West going to sue ALPA?

[PCL_128]

Well,well,well. If it isn't Alpa National's little boot licker Mark.You ever get tired of carrying their water?


PHXFLYR

Rez is most certainly not Mark.

 

[PCL_128]

That's what leadership is about, doing the right thing regardless of the consequences.

No, that's not leadership, that's blind idealism. I'm not one to defend Prater, but expecting him to simply ignore the concerns brought forth by the East pilots is ridiculous.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

It's not if the East's concerns are ridiculous.

They took it to arbitration. They brought this onto themselves with their unrealistic expectations. And now Prater is letting all the alpa groups down by waffling when his duty is clear: Enforce an arbitrated award.

3800 angry pilots are driving an organization of "60,000 pilots who fly for 41 U.S. and Canadian airlines."

Prater is a coward.

ALPA is a pathetic waste of money.

 

[PHXFLYR]

It's not if the East's concerns are ridiculous.

They took it to arbitration. They brought this onto themselves with their unrealistic expectations. And now Prater is letting all the alpa groups down by waffling when his duty is clear: Enforce an arbitrated award.

3800 angry pilots are driving an organization of "60,000 pilots who fly for 41 U.S. and Canadian airlines."

Prater is a coward.

ALPA is a pathetic waste of money.

AMEN!!!!


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

Well that is all fine... ALPA isn't the only solution...but it would seem to easier and better fix the current model than create a new one....

Not when the current model is beyond fixing. I'd much rather put all that time energy and effort into creating an in house union from scratch rather than waste one more second trying to salvage this poor excuse of a union known as ALPA. What a waste.

PHXFLYR

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not when the current model is beyond fixing. I'd much rather put all that time energy and effort into creating an in house union from scratch rather than waste one more second trying to salvage this poor excuse of a union known as ALPA. What a waste.

PHXFLYR

Sounds good.... what's your plan......

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Well, [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]First I'm gonna need Three-In-One oil and some gauze pads. And I'm gonna need about ten quarts of anti-freeze, preferably Prestone. No... no make that Quaker State.

Apologies to Fletch and my ALPA brothers.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Ace McCoy]

Dudes seriously. Binding Arbitration. What part of binding is so hard to understand?

If you don't like the results don't frickin agree to Binding Arbitration. Sounds simple to me.

 

[AVI8V1]

I may be mistaken but isn't part of the east's argument include accusations that Nicolau did not follow the guidelines in front of him for the integration and therefore the arbitration is not valid?

 

[FDJ2]

I may be mistaken but isn't part of the east's argument include accusations that Nicolau did not follow the guidelines in front of him for the integration and therefore the arbitration is not valid?

Of course they are going to argue that, but ultimately they will lose the argument.

The East is going to utilize every avenue available to them to defeat this binding arbitration, but ultimately the Nicolau decision will prevail, ALPA will deliver the list to management and it will be implemented.

In the meantime, expect more of the same from the East, they are simply trying to create some leverage to get the West MEC back into negotiations, but unfortunately for the East, that train has left the station.

 

[AVI8V1]

fdj2
thanks for the input, I am trying to educate myself on the debate.
Does anyone know what in particular the east says was violated in the integration protocol?

I also understand that if you project the new list out 7 years, with retirements 4 to 1 east to west, all widebody captain slots will be held by west pilots (if they choose to bid them).

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

I think the East plan now is simply to delay. They hope that by keeping the airline apart they will be able to take advantage of the attrition. Basically they want as many guys to become CA from their list as possible; even the dead ones.

They know its a matter of time, but they're trying to slow it down by suing. Problem is, they've poisoned the process for all of ALPA, not to mention they're wrecking the airline in the process.

They'll argue it was already wrecked, but damn if these guys aren't willing to sink 45,000 USAirways workers' livelihoods so some guys who weren't working here can be placed ahead of those who are.

 

[PCL_128]

fdj2
thanks for the input, I am trying to educate myself on the debate.
Does anyone know what in particular the east says was violated in the integration protocol?

The "no windfall" clause is what the East is arguing was violated. Basically, ALPA merger policy requires that a variety of factors be considered in determining a merged list, but neither side is allowed to receive a "windfall." The East argues that the pilots on the West received such a windfall, therefore the arbitrator didn't comply with ALPA merger policy.

 

[AVI8V1]

that would be it.

I know a usair guy hired in 1986 or so who is JUNIOR to an 04 AWA guy. Says the kid wasn't even born when he was flying at Braniff.

Single alpa seniority list anyone?

 

[abefly]

that would be it.

I know a usair guy hired in 1986 or so who is JUNIOR to an 04 AWA guy. Says the kid wasn't even born when he was flying at Braniff.

Single alpa seniority list anyone?

What does age have to do with alpa merger policy? NOTHING If a 1986 hire date at US AIR placed you 30 from the bottom on the airbus and a 2005 hire date at AMERICA WEST placed you 30 from the bottom on the airbus then you should be relatviely at the same seniority!!!

 

[m80drvr]

that would be it.

I know a usair guy hired in 1986 or so who is JUNIOR to an 04 AWA guy. Says the kid wasn't even born when he was flying at Braniff.

Single alpa seniority list anyone?

So that guy thinks that it would not be a windfall for him to bid from bottom first officer to line holding captain on the next open bid? The windfall arguement can and will go both ways. DOH even with fences is a windfall for the east. Relative seniority, which the award is, is the only fair way. I would be willing to bet that their would not be one arbitrator who would change the award if it were overturned by ALPO. They would not go against the will of the head arbitrator.

The east guys should read the whole ruling, even their chosen neutral said Nicelau did a good, thoughtful job. His only dissention was about a few hundred furloughed guys that were recalled after the merger was announced. I assume Nicelau plcaed them at the bottom because they would have not been recalled if the merger never happened. At least not that soon.

ALPA need to represent all 60000 members and just present the list. Remenber, defending this list and the east law suit is costing ALL ALPO members money. It is your dues that ALPA is wasting.

 

[AVI8V1]

that guy was a line holding captain on the 747 when this kid wasn't even riding a tricycle. I think there is something to be said about realistic career expectations. And I don't buy the argument that east would have closed the doors and these guys would have no job w/o the merger. LCC had 90 days cash and AWA had 30 days cash when they collided.

 

[Fast43]

that would be it.

I know a usair guy hired in 1986 or so who is JUNIOR to an 04 AWA guy. Says the kid wasn't even born when he was flying at Braniff.

Single alpa seniority list anyone?

Braniff Huh?? Ask him just how much time in service he got to bring with him when he got hired at USair. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say NONE.

Essentially this company was created in May of 2005. Participants include AWA and AAA, for Marketing reasons the AAA name was kept. Other than that it is a new company that does not resemble either of the old companies. The Arbitrator took our respective bidding lists and combined them, with credit given only for what seat you were in (capt-f/o) If you were 30 from the bottom at either company you ended up 30 from the bottom of the new company. If you were on furlough before the merger announcement, then when you got recalled you went to the bottom. Just as it would have been before the merger. However even the casual observer would agree that absent the merger, recalls would not have been likely.

As far as a windfall due to attrition. The Abitrator stated that AAA benifited from this merger much more than their west counterparts. With no merger, no AAA, and no attrition for them to "enjoy". Hence the attrition and recalls they have had for 2+ years is happening BECAUSE of the merger. Therefore their claim of us getting something they would have had for themselves is a VERY hollow claim.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

No, no, no.... They all kept their seniority when the other airline they came from folded up. Didn't you hear?

 

[Soulfly]

Again, some people are confusing age with seniority.
One has nothing to do with the other. Unless you are in new hire ground school.

It's ok, I am sure a 55 year old FO will have no trouble finding a 90K year a job when this place goes tango unifrom.

 

[Fast43]

that guy was a line holding captain on the 747 when this kid wasn't even riding a tricycle. I think there is something to be said about realistic career expectations. And I don't buy the argument that east would have closed the doors and these guys would have no job w/o the merger. LCC had 90 days cash and AWA had 30 days cash when they collided.

You are parroting bad information. At a Check Airmans meeting the summer of 05 either Bular or Crellin made some statement to the effect of only having 5 days left to go when the merger was announced. What you may be referring to is that only after Parker agreed to take this on. Money became available to get AAA out of BK and at that time (after exiting) AAA had 90 days of cash. Without the merger this would not have been the case. Think about it, if AAA could have attracted all that financing etc. Why would they bother with AWA at all.

If you have access to the ALPA national web boards you will see postings with info for the AAA guys on how to apply for UNEMPLOYMENT in their respective states.

Clearly they had their eyes on attrition!!!

 

[AVI8V1]

Braniff Huh?? Ask him just how much time in service he got to bring with him when he got hired at USair. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say NONE.

.

I'm not sure what you are getting at but Braniff in 1975, then Air Niagra (727s), PE, then Continental (missed the Lorenzo cutoff on the CA list, went to the bottom, left soon after) Piedmont, now USAIR.

And what I think you are getting at is that none of it helped him off the bottom of the newhire list at USAIR.

But to then be handed an arbitration that says you will not be a captain when you retire despite 32 years in the 121 world and 21 years at your current airline- well that seems like something everyone would want to try to prevent. If not for this guy's career then for their own. Arbitration does take in to account realistic career expectations, right?

I feel bad for the guy, I'd say east got the sh!t end of the stick on this one.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Yep, he did get the sh!t end of the stick. But look at it this way he could have gone to American, United, stayed at Continental, hired on at Northwest, bought a type rating and used all that experience at the brand new Southwest....

He made choices as do we all. I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, it hasn't for me either; but trying to save yourself a left seat while killing everyone's career... and ruining an airline that actually had a chance, it don't make you a hero it makes you a chump.

Your experience while interesting brings nothing to the merger that I didn't bring too, why should you be able to fence me out.

If we survive this, there'll be a reckoning, you can count on it.

Oh, by the way, I had family at Continental during Lorenzo. He struck and then quit. Went to work for a little airline out in San Diego called PSA. When USAir bought them he told me to NEVER EVER WORK at USAir.

Fate is a b!tch.

 

[FDJ2]

that guy was a line holding captain on the 747 when this kid wasn't even riding a tricycle.

So why isn't he still a captain on the 747?


I think there is something to be said about realistic career expectations.

What were his careeer expectations as a Captain at Braniff, what are they as a junior F/O at AAA?

And I don't buy the argument that east would have closed the doors and these guys would have no job w/o the merger. LCC had 90 days cash and AWA had 30 days cash when they collided.

The AAA pilots were working for a company deep into its second bankruptcy in less than 2 years, AWA was profitable.

I don't mean to beat up on the East guys and I think it deserves to be mentioned that the old US brought some real value to the merger, but their DOH and LOS argument does not comply with ALPAs guidelines nearly as well as a relative seniority integration, where captains of like aircraft are integrated based on their position in their respective seniority list and so are F/Os.

 

[xanderman]

that guy was a line holding captain on the 747 when this kid wasn't even riding a tricycle.

So why isn't he still a captain on the 747?


I think there is something to be said about realistic career expectations.

What were his careeer expectations as a Captain at Braniff, what are they as a junior F/O at AAA?

And I don't buy the argument that east would have closed the doors and these guys would have no job w/o the merger. LCC had 90 days cash and AWA had 30 days cash when they collided.

The AAA pilots were working for a company deep into its second bankruptcy in less than 2 years, AWA was profitable.

I don't mean to beat up on the East guys and I think it deserves to be mentioned that the old US brought some real value to the merger, but their DOH and LOS argument does not comply with ALPAs guidelines nearly as well as a relative seniority integration, where captains of like aircraft are integrated based on their position in their respective seniority list and so are F/Os.

Somebody who gets it!!!!!! Good to hear FDJ2...

 

[Fast43]

I'm not sure what you are getting at but Braniff in 1975, then Air Niagra (727s), PE, then Continental (missed the Lorenzo cutoff on the CA list, went to the bottom, left soon after) Piedmont, now USAIR.

And what I think you are getting at is that none of it helped him off the bottom of the newhire list at USAIR.

But to then be handed an arbitration that says you will not be a captain when you retire despite 32 years in the 121 world and 21 years at your current airline- well that seems like something everyone would want to try to prevent. If not for this guy's career then for their own. Arbitration does take in to account realistic career expectations, right?

I feel bad for the guy, I'd say east got the sh!t end of the stick on this one.

I believe you are trying to reason with emotion. If life was fair, a guy would be hired once and retire 25-35 years later as #1 and have never furloughed or downgraded. But we know that the reality is that life is not always "Fair". Some careers have smooth air and some do not.

Career Expectations are in fact considered by the Arbitrator. He stated that the AAA pilots had much more to gain from the merger than the AWA pilots.

Sh!t end of the stick???????????

Lets see.........

A the top 517 spots

B pretty close to the same relative bidding position as before the merger for the rest

C and an actual opportunity for the furloughed ranks to return.

Compared to what they would have had in joining the ranks of Braniff, Eastern and Pan Am.

Maybe you should modify your opinion of what the "Sh!t end of the stick actually is"

 

[get2flyin]

I was gonna make some clever analogy that was sort of a reach but still relevant about how the USAir guys didn't really get the shaft at all. How as impressive as 21 years of 121 service should be, thanks to the ups and downs of the industry you can nullify your career "expectations".

But you know what? Screw it. I know I'm wasting my breath. Negotiations are over. Arbitration is over. Binding Arbitration is over. A pathetic attempt to overturn the BINDING arbitration has been put to bed. It doesn't matter what either side thinks. Let's all put our big-boy pants on and move forward.

 

[Green]

that would be it.

I know a usair guy hired in 1986 or so who is JUNIOR to an 04 AWA guy. Says the kid wasn't even born when he was flying at Braniff.

Single alpa seniority list anyone?

I know a 52 year old who was hired at AWA a few years ago. Despite the fact that he had formerly been a 727 captain and was typed on the 737 and 747 AWA decided to put him on the bottom of the list!!! Can you believe that? Even though he had years of experience in the industry they still put him on the bottom of the list as a newhire? I´m shocked he didn´t sue.

Your buddy who flew for Braniff probably brings some good stories but who gives a sh#t how many years he had at Braniff when it comes to the seniority integration of AWA and US Airways? He might have been slotted behind other 04 hires who flew A10´s for the last 20 years or possibly former TWA Captains... You have to remember that when AWA was hiring in 03-05 they were one of the ONLY majors hiring at the time. Competition was fierce and they generally hired highly experienced pilots who had experienced some tough breaks.

 

[AVI8V1]

I know a 52 year old who was hired at AWA a few years ago. Despite the fact that he had formerly been a 727 captain and was typed on the 737 and 747 AWA decided to put him on the bottom of the list!!! Can you believe that? Even though he had years of experience in the industry they still put him on the bottom of the list as a newhire? I´m shocked he didn´t sue.

Your sarcasm has been noted. I can tell that there are alot more vocal AWA pilots on this board. So let me ask you guys the definition of a "windfall". If you project the integration out 7 years or so (with AAA retiring 4 pilots for every 1 from AWA), CLOSE TO EVERY WIDEBODY CAPTAIN SPOT will be occupied by an AMERICA WEST PILOT if they bid for it. You guys didn't have any widebodies or int'l presence pre merger. I can understand why you are so fiercely defending the arbitration.

Reality is there are a lot of East pilots who are fed up and they want to have a way to make their voices heard. They don't care about your numbers or clever sarcasm; they don't care that AWA was very competitive in 2003, they could not care less that you say "binding is binding" like a child who is afraid to come out from behind Daddy Nicolau- what they do care about is getting these groups intergrated in a more palatable and balanced fashion.

 

[trainer8]

Your sarcasm has been noted. I can tell that there are alot more vocal AWA pilots on this board. So let me ask you guys the definition of a "windfall". If you project the integration out 7 years or so (with AAA retiring 4 pilots for every 1 from AWA), CLOSE TO EVERY WIDEBODY CAPTAIN SPOT will be occupied by an AMERICA WEST PILOT if they bid for it. You guys didn't have any widebodies or int'l presence pre merger. I can understand why you are so fiercely defending the arbitration.

Reality is there are a lot of East pilots who are fed up and they want to have a way to make their voices heard. They don't care about your numbers or clever sarcasm; they don't care that AWA was very competitive in 2003, they could not care less that you say "binding is binding" like a child who is afraid to come out from behind Daddy Nicolau- what they do care about is getting these groups intergrated in a more palatable and balanced fashion.

You are wasting your time, here. There will be no concensus or understanding between the the pilot groups. They are philisophically and ideologically opposite regarding the arbitration.

The most unfortunate casualty of this arbitration award is the loss of professionalism between airmen demonstrated on this board and that has been carried into the cockpit and cabin on both carriers.

Fortunately, for the friends I have who fly for US Airways West, some who were former APL blokes, we maintain a friendship and professional attitude, while at the same time, disagreeing on the merits of the Award. It can be done.

It's time to move on.

T8