When did the 40 hours minimum for Private come about?

[Frmr Avro Drvr]

I have a student that is trying to justify to his employer that expecting him to finish in 40 hours is a pretty high bar to set. He is arguing that he can reasonably do it in 50 to 55 and would like reimbursement to that level. If he has to he will take the 40 hours worth of money since free money is free money, but why not try for more.

What he is really trying to show is that the 40 hour rule has been around for a while and the requirements for tasks and training has increased. He is trying to show that the industry advertised average of 55 to 70 is correct.

Any of you "more mature" types remember when 40 hours became the minimum?

Thanks

 

[gkrangers]

Better not let them find out about Part 141

 

[flydrummer]

Man....can I get a job there??? I'd love for my employer to pay for ANY hours!

 

[minitour]

Could you "fudge" the numbers for him?

Mr Business Owner:
Regarding your employee, John, and his pilot training, here is the hourly breakdowns for obtaining a private pilot's license.

15 - Primary Training For Pre-Solo Flight
4 - Solo Flight and Primary Review
15 - Primary Training for Cross Country Flight
8 - Solo Cross Country Flight
5 - Primary Night Flight Training
3 - Primary Flight Training by Sole Reference to Instruments
5 - Flight Test Preparation Training
2 - Flight Test
Total: 57 Hours

Please call me personally regarding any questions about John's training. I look forward to working with him and answering any questions you both may have.

Best Regards,
Jim The CFI

Send him a letter or something like that and just say "this is what it will be"...

Not sure if that'll work, but if you break it down like that, it may help things out a bit.

Hope that helped a little.

-mini

 

[say again]

Where I'm from 60-80 hrs is average. Of course, the school will say you CAN get in 40, but that rarely ever happens. A way to rope people in. It certainly gets quite a few people angry when they realize that it's costing them almost double than what they were told.
As for where they got the 40 hr rule, I have no idea!!!!

 

[Frmr Avro Drvr]

Could you "fudge" the numbers for him?

Mr Business Owner:
Regarding your employee, John, and his pilot training, here is the hourly breakdowns for obtaining a private pilot's license.

15 - Primary Training For Pre-Solo Flight
4 - Solo Flight and Primary Review
15 - Primary Training for Cross Country Flight
8 - Solo Cross Country Flight
5 - Primary Night Flight Training
3 - Primary Flight Training by Sole Reference to Instruments
5 - Flight Test Preparation Training
2 - Flight Test
Total: 57 Hours

Please call me personally regarding any questions about John's training. I look forward to working with him and answering any questions you both may have.

Best Regards,
Jim The CFI

Send him a letter or something like that and just say "this is what it will be"...

Not sure if that'll work, but if you break it down like that, it may help things out a bit.

Hope that helped a little.

-mini

I already did that an they keep pointing back that the minimum required is 40 hours so that is all they will pay for. As I said, he will take any money, but why not go for it all.

By the way, how is David J. Perry airport these days. I used to freelance out of there. I spent quite a few hours tooling around central OK.

 

[Frmr Avro Drvr]

Man....can I get a job there??? I'd love for my employer to pay for ANY hours!

Do you have an engineering degree? If yes, chances are you could get in here.

 

[minitour]

I already did that an they keep pointing back that the minimum required is 40 hours so that is all they will pay for. As I said, he will take any money, but why not go for it all.

By the way, how is David J. Perry airport these days. I used to freelance out of there. I spent quite a few hours tooling around central OK.

Can you pull any stats showing the 40 isn't realistic?

As for Perry...last time I was there (March?) it was pretty busy. There was me and two or three others in the pattern, so I left and went back to Westheimer. Seemed like a few planes on the ground too.

-mini

 

[Frmr Avro Drvr]

Can you pull any stats showing the 40 isn't realistic?

As for Perry...last time I was there (March?) it was pretty busy. There was me and two or three others in the pattern, so I left and went back to Westheimer. Seemed like a few planes on the ground too.

-mini

We got quote from the following:

Old (1999) FAA Student handbook
AOPA Magazine
Plane and Pilot

They quote anything from 50 to 85 hours.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

 

[mayday1]

i thought AOPA or the FAA website stated national averages.. don't have time to look now, but I'm sure I've read these somewhere... although the employer may not care about averages. Also, why push it.. the guys getting 40hrs free, or almost a PPL for nothing...

 

[Almerick07]

follow a part 141 syllabus and let the 5 hours spill over for anything extra

 

[NEFlyer]

It will take more hours the longer you stretch it out. We just had a guy pass in 30 days with 42 hours. If we didn't have a hurricane problem he would have been done in 21 days. Our average time is about 45 hours if it is done in 3 months or less.

 

[Mr Wu]

What are you averaging for your private students and are you confident that he cannot do it in 40 hours?

 

[A Squared]

Well, I don't know exactly when the 40 hours started, but I have a copy of the regulations from 1950. Here's the way it was back then:

If you are training in a "spinable" aircraft, you have to have 10 hours of dual instruction and 30 hours of solo flight. If the aircraft was not spinable, you were required to have 7 hours of dual instruction and 20 hours of solo flight.

Interesting, compare that with today's requirement of 40 hours with at least 20 hours of dual instruction. It almost seems like back then the instructor taught you to solo, then you went out and taught yourself from there on.

Also interesting was that (reading between the lines) the intent was that spin training and practice took an additional 13 hours.

 

[minitour]

If you are training in a "spinable" aircraft, you have to have 10 hours of dual instruction and 30 hours of solo flight. If the aircraft was not spinable, you were required to have 7 hours of dual instruction and 20 hours of solo flight.

 

[Lead Sled]

Well, I don't know exactly when the 40 hours started, but I have a copy of the regulations from 1950. Here's the way it was back then:

If you are training in a "spinable" aircraft, you have to have 10 hours of dual instruction and 30 hours of solo flight. If the aircraft was not spinable, you were required to have 7 hours of dual instruction and 20 hours of solo flight.

Interesting, compare that with today's requirement of 40 hours with at least 20 hours of dual instruction. It almost seems like back then the instructor taught you to solo, then you went out and taught yourself from there on.

Also interesting was that (reading between the lines) the intent was that spin training and practice took an additional 13 hours.

Something tells me that the change to 40 hours (across the board) happened around 1959, but I'm not positive. I know that back in the mid-60's when I learned to fly the regulations were essentially the same as they are today.

The "non-spinable" aircraft that was used in training back in the 40's and 50's was the Ercoupe. My dad learned to fly in an Ercoupe back in 1957. I've got his old logbook - he soloed after two lessons and 1:40. Evidently, that wasn't all that unusual - I remember reading about contests that instructors used to have to see who could solo students the quickest. The quickest student to solo was just at one hour in an Ercoupe. I remember asking my dad what he did during those two flights and he told me that all they did was pattern work. Those who got their license in a "2-control" Ercoupe were restricted to that type.

'Sled

 

[Frmr Avro Drvr]

What are you averaging for your private students and are you confident that he cannot do it in 40 hours?

When I was instructing full time, the students were flying three times a day six days a week. They were finishing in under four weeks and around forty hours. This was in Florida were scheduled flying was almost guaranteed.

Now, I am flying in Michigan with the winter approaching. We will be lucky to fly one or two times a week since I have a full time job and so does he. As everyone knows, recency of experience and frequency of flight is directly tied to retention and proficiency. Flying once a week will increase the calendar time to get proficient. Also, I have 1200 hours instruction given with a 93% pass rate so I have a pretty good baseline idea of how my students perform.

He is pretty sharp but it doesn't hurt to see if the company will increase the limit. The company insists that is should only cost $3500 to get a private. My student will take what he can get but he is thinking he will try for more.

Thanks for everyone's input.

 

[A Squared]

Interesting side note, I recently accuired a book of regulations from 1939. Then, it took 43 hours to get a private pilot certificate. You had to have logged 35 hours of Solo flight, and you were required to have 8 hours of instruction before soloing.

 

[nosehair]

Interesting side note, I recently accuired a book of regulations from 1939. Then, it took 43 hours to get a private pilot certificate. You had to have logged 35 hours of Solo flight, and you were required to have 8 hours of instruction before soloing.

Really! I am interested in how this paticular regulation has evolved. I would really appreciate a quote from this 1939 CAR book concerning private pilot requirements. For instance, your numbers seem lacking. If 8 hours was required to solo, then was there no more instruction required after the 35 hours solo to prepare for the test? Was any x/c required? I know that no night or instrument was required until late 50's / early 60's.

I would really appreciate the CAA regulation number and exact quote...as much as you care to send.
​

 

[A Squared]

Really! I am interested in how this paticular regulation has evolved. I would really appreciate a quote from this 1939 CAR book concerning private pilot requirements. For instance, your numbers seem lacking. If 8 hours was required to solo, then was there no more instruction required after the 35 hours solo to prepare for the test? Was any x/c required? I know that no night or instrument was required until late 50's / early 60's.

I would really appreciate the CAA regulation number and exact quote...as much as you care to send.
​

Nosehair. I can't quote the numbers and exact wording of the regulations. the book I have is sort of a plain english guide to the regulations. there are very few regulation numbers and it is not clear how much is verbatim quotes of the regs and how much is the author's words. In the preface, it says: "In most cases the regulations are copied. However it has been necessary to re-word and consolidate other paragraphs to eliminate cross reference and non-essentials, thereby creating an easy reference."

With that in mind, I'll tell you what it says in my book.

THere was a Student pilot rating, a solo pilot rating and a private pilot rating.

The student pilot rating had no minimums, but you were required to receive 8 hours of dual instruction before solo. you were restricted to 25 of the airport when solo. You couldn't carry anyone other than your instructor.

THe Solo pilot rating required 5 hours of solo time, 3 hours within hte last 60 day of the application for the rating. THere were no geographical restriction on solo flight, but you still couldn't carry passengers.

The private pilot "rating" required 35 hours of solo flight time. No specific requirement for dual instruction is mentioned, other than the 8 hours instruction prior to first solo. There is a requirement for 5 hours of cross country, with a minimum of 3 hours solo. no specific requirement for x-c instruction is mentioned. That's pretty much all it mentions as far as experience requirements. SO that begs the question, were there other requirements that the author neglected to mention? I tend to think not. Looking at my 1950 copy of the CARs, which *is* a direct copy of hte regulations themselves, the requirements are not terribly elaborate, or much different that those I found in the 1939 regs.

In 1950 the PPL reqirements were 10 hours dual, 30 hours solo. Minimum of 2 hours Dual *after* first solo. 3 hours solo cross-country, with one X-c to a point not less that 50 miles from the point of departure with 2 full stop landings at airports other than point of departure. That's about it. there wasn't anywhere near the detailed requirements we have today. the only specific areas addresses were "instruction in the prevention of and recovery from power on and power off stalls entered from all normally anticipated flight attitudes"