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Wheel landings

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LR25 said:
I fly Pawnees towing banners, I bet if you let go at 20ft with that airplane it still would make a nice landing.

One of the best tow airplanes around.

For gliders, maybe...maybe I just flew a bad one when I was dragging rags. I hated the Pawnee then. My favs are the Ag-Cat (just cuz it is an Ag Cat), Scout and the C-150 with the 150hp on it....simply because I had a place to put some food.

As for 3pts or wheelies...do whatever fits you and the airplane best.
Try a 3-pt ina Beech-18 and you are asking for trouble.
 
I've been avoiding the tempatation to respond to this post since it really has the potential to turn into a religious war, but what the heck. Of my about 750 tailwheel landings (miracles of electronic logbooks), I would say at least 90% have been wheel landings. Almost all of those tailwheel landings have been in my C180 and the majority with just me or me and one passenger in the plane. With a forward CG and a STOL kit, the 180 just doesn't like to stall cleanly for a 3-pt landing.

Instead, I try to approach at 70 mph (plus a gust factor if needed) with a little power. Just above the runway I flair a bit to arrest the sink rate then pull the power as soon as the wheels kiss the ground. Pulling the power eliminates just enough lift to keep the mains on the ground. Then it's a matter of slowing down and dropping the tail once well below stall speed. With the tail up I have better rudder authority than if it's being blanketed by the wings. With the mains firmly on the ground (and well maintained brakes) I can use a little brake if necessary to keep the plane straight in a high crosswind (i.e. rudder to the floor then tap the brake if a little more correction is needed in a gust). Added benefits are better visibility down the runway when I'm touching down and the trim is usually set just about right for takeoff which make go-arounds a no-brainer.

I try to do the same thing for consistency when I have a full load and an aft CG, but often it's just as easy to 3-pt since the approach is completely the same. The wheel landing is a little more smooth though.

As always, YMMV.

-DJ
 
Grumman guy said:
How do Mr. Snows birds do?

Well, I guess the only way to answer that is to say that crop dusters are demanding sob's.:) Perfectionist would also be fitting I guess. So I think Leland designed his birds to make pretty landings even when the driver is to tired to change the outcome.;)
 
OrcasC180 said:
has the potential to turn into a religious war

:confused:

I guess I have seen some guys that called themselves pilots get out of a Luscombe thanking the God they didn't believe to exist;)
 
Sounds like Van Sant out in PA, where I recently completed the TW endorsement in the Super Decathlon. The problem I had doing wheel landings there is that the field is so uneven that by the time you level off with the wheels about to touch the ground would either rise up or drop away.

Dave
Steve said:
Thanks for all the info guys. I am working on my Tailwheel in a 7ac 65hp champ and have been making great 3 point landings but wheel landings have been giving me some trouble. The runway at the airport is grass and the most uneven I've ever used. Makes it extra challenging to do wheel landings at least for me. Last time I flew it was 12 kts gusting to 16 and about 40-50 degrees off the nose. Many of my landings had to be turned into 3 point after i'd bounce it on one wheel and turned out fine as a full stall. Like some have already mentioned, my CFI recomended leaving in a bit of power and coming in a few kts faster but that seemed to just make me bounce harder.
 
Mr. Cole said:
Sounds like Van Sant out in PA, where I recently completed the TW endorsement in the Super Decathlon. The problem I had doing wheel landings there is that the field is so uneven that by the time you level off with the wheels about to touch the ground would either rise up or drop away.

Dave


I'm in central FL but it sounds like a similar situation.
 
TurboS7 said:
I learned to fly in a Luscombe 8-A, and I also believe in God.

I got about a hundred hours in a 150hp 8E. I hated the breaks in it but that thing was a blast. If I remember right it would do 135mph on 7/8gph. I would love to have one but my belt done got to long. Americas funniest video would like to have a film of me dismounting a Luscombe.
 
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Budd Davisson @ Airbum.com On Landing Taildraggers

Budd Davisson, the popular and prolific aviation writer and part time airplane evaluator, posted the following a few months ago on the Bearhawk Yahoo website. It is the best short essay on landing taildraggers I've ever read. I asked for and received permission to repost it here.

You can learn a lot at Airbum.com. :)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 9, 2005

Alright, I'm a little more rested and ready to take this thing on:

First, you can't make a black and white statement that wheel landings are bad and three-points are the only way to land. It changes with the conditions and the airplane.

For anyone in the group who I haven't assaulted on this particular subject: I've been teaching in tailwheels as a CFI for 39 years, 4,000 hours plus dual given in the Pitts in which I specialize in teaching people to land with narrow, short runways being my specialty. Another couple thousand dual given in other tailwheels from Cubs to T-6's.

My rule for the use of a wheel landing is strictly driven by the gust spread. As the gust spread becomes a larger part of the airplane's stall speed, the likelihood of being picked up right at the point of touchdown increases. However, even that isn't black and white because the direction and character of the gusts come into play.

If you study wind closely, which I do on a daily basis, you'll notice that there are some crosswinds where the gusts always come from a different direction than the wind. Normally, if you have a 30 degree right crosswind, for instance, with a 10 knot gust spread, that gusts will be from 40-45 degrees, so for that instant, you have a bigger crosswind then you have the airplane set up to handle (wing down at a given angle, etc), which calls for instant correction. This is no big deal unless two factors are involved: if the gust spread is 20-25% of the aircraft's stall speed or more and it gets to be a VERY big deal if the wind is snapping from slightly in front of the wing to behind it. Then you have a serious shear condition that loves to plant airplanes like hockey pucks.

If the wind has no gusts, then it really doesn't make any difference how strong it is because the airplane will just be moving slower on touchdown, so a three point is nearly normal and is all that's needed. However, the lighter the airplane, the lower it's crosswind component limit will be although even that isn't carved in stone. A Maule, for
instance, is the same weight as a BH but it will barely handle 10 knots across the runway (the POH says 12, I think) because of the huge fin and the tiny rudder. 108-3 Stimson's with the big fin have the same problem. The BH is at least twice that.

Some airplanes, a Taylorcraft BC-12D, for instance, really work you in fairly small winds because it is so incredibly light and doesn't want to stop flying. Still, if you stay right on it, you can handle more wind than you think, but gust spreads are its real enemy.

On heavier airplanes (T-6's, Mustangs, etc) I always three-point them even though you don't see it done often. The only reason people don't is because they are worried about landing crooked and loosing them, which isn't really a factor.

On airplanes with higher wing loading, e.g. the Pitts, I ALWAYS three-point it. The Pitts has such good slow speed control and is so heavy, I don't consider it to have a crosswind limitation. My record is a documented 38 knots, gusting to 50 that was snapping from 60 to 90 degrees to the runway and it wasn't even a hard thing to do and the airplane was a LONG way from it's limits.

THE FOLLOWING IS CRITICAL WHEN THREE-POINTING IN GUSTY WINDS:
First, be ready with the power to break a fall should a gust die just as you're ready to touch down. Then be ready to roll the wing into the wind should a gust pick you up after touch down.

The kiss of death in a gusty three point landing is to let the airplane begin drifting AFTER it has been picked up by a gust, which is highly likely if flying a lightly wing loaded airplane. If it is picked up OR you bounced and you let the wind drift you, it will take much more down wing to cancel out both the wind induced drift AND the momentum of the airplane moving sideways.

At the same time, there's going to be an increased tendency for the airplane to weather vane at the moment it is picked up. So, there you are five feet off the ground moving sideways, the nose coming into the wind and running out of speed. If you let the airplane touchdown in that situation, you're going to be a very busy bear. Very busy. The airplane's tendency to snap into the wind because of the drift and crooked stance will be dramatic.

Here's an absolute, not to be violated rule: if you bounce or get picked up in a crosswind, the instant it starts up, you lean into the wind AND COME BACK DOWN IN YOUR ORIGINAL TIRE TRACKS. That means you'll be aligned with the line of travel (nose straight, wing down) with no drift and there will be no consequences.

On light airplanes, Cubs, Champs, etc, if the gust spread gets up to around 10 knots (25% of stall) and the wind is 20 or more degrees off the nose, for most folks, wheel landing is definitely called for to cancel out the possibility of the gusts slamming you into the ground at touchdown. However, wheelies in that situation can call for more technique then a three point would.

First, it should be stated that different airplanes wheel land better than others and the idea that you can wheel it on without "loading" it after touchdown borders on lunacy, especially in gusts. The whole reason for a wheelie is to touchdown at a high enough speed that the wind is less of a factor, which also calls for a lower angle of attack. If you
zero out the rate of descent exactly, yes, you can fly it on to the ground and not paste it on but that is really a trick and one I'm never confident I can pull off. So, because you've almost always got just a little rate of descent at touch down you always have the possibility of a little rebound and it's the rebound that can eat your lunch on a wheel landing (and that's ignoring a number of other lunch eating possibilities).

The other thing that'll eat you up on wheel landing is to "anticipate" the touch down: you're hanging there and you know it's going to touch at any moment and you yield to temptation and try to push it on from a few inches up. Boing! And you bounce. In some airplanes you can force it on in that position, most you can't. The right thing to do is to power up slightly and fly it back on to the ground.

The trick is to hold it off and fly formation with the ground gradually closing on it until you land on the back half of the main tires and gently bring the tail up level or slightly high to nail it down. When instructing in Champs, we used to run the trim all the way forward then, just as the airplane touched down, put both of our hands out in front of
the student so we could show them that it was the trim that had rolled the tail up and held it up until it was ready to come down gently on it's own. I don't recommend this technique but it was a good demonstration.

One way to fight rebound is right at that magic moment when you know it's just about ready to touch, drop one wing slightly, so you touch one wheel before the other. This cuts the rebound in half. In a crosswind, you'll be landing on one wheel anyway so it's not that much of a problem.

Wheel landings are useful but they have the potential for spectacular problems if a pilot persists in trying to force it back down after bouncing/skipping. The mains touch, the CG continues going down, the airplane pitches up, the pilot forces it down, the CG comes down harder so this leap is worse than the last but the speed is diminishing so he
has less control, yada, yada, yada.

Lynn's comment about the Army not letting them wheel-land Bird Dogs was based on the fact that the rebound and crow hopping tendencies of the L-19's whippy gear in a wheel landing is such that you can get some really wild porpoises going. Been there, done that. I don't know how you wheel land most spring gear airplanes without without loading them in a very precise manner at touch down.

Do I think airplanes should be wheel landed as a matter of course? Absolutely not! The additional speed is your enemy and waiting to bite you in the butt. Do I think airplanes should ALWAYS be three-pointed? Absolutely not, although it depends on the airplane. There are NO conditions, for instance, in which you'll see me wheeling a Pitts on. But, you'll never see me trying to three point a T-craft in a 15 knot wind with ten knot gusts 30 degrees off the nose. Hopefully, you'll never see me trying to fly a T-craft at all in that wind.

Incidentally, to get a tailwheel endorsement, the FARs say the instructor is supposed to teach wheel landing, so you should know how to do them anyway.

**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**! I didn't mean to ramble on so long. Sorry. But this is obviously one of my soap box subjects.

bd

.


 
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OrcasC180 said:
I've been avoiding the tempatation to respond to this post since it really has the potential to turn into a religious war, but what the heck. Of my about 750 tailwheel landings (miracles of electronic logbooks), I would say at least 90% have been wheel landings. Almost all of those tailwheel landings have been in my C180 and the majority with just me or me and one passenger in the plane. With a forward CG and a STOL kit, the 180 just doesn't like to stall cleanly for a 3-pt landing.

Instead, I try to approach at 70 mph (plus a gust factor if needed) with a little power. Just above the runway I flair a bit to arrest the sink rate then pull the power as soon as the wheels kiss the ground. Pulling the power eliminates just enough lift to keep the mains on the ground. Then it's a matter of slowing down and dropping the tail once well below stall speed. With the tail up I have better rudder authority than if it's being blanketed by the wings. With the mains firmly on the ground (and well maintained brakes) I can use a little brake if necessary to keep the plane straight in a high crosswind (i.e. rudder to the floor then tap the brake if a little more correction is needed in a gust). Added benefits are better visibility down the runway when I'm touching down and the trim is usually set just about right for takeoff which make go-arounds a no-brainer.

I try to do the same thing for consistency when I have a full load and an aft CG, but often it's just as easy to 3-pt since the approach is completely the same. The wheel landing is a little more smooth though.

As always, YMMV.

-DJ

I found the 180 to be quite the pig in the 3 point landing, I got about 400-500 hrs in them, and I might have 3 pointed it maybe 10-15 times. It seems you have to roll the stab trim all the way nose up or about one turn away from full nose up to get it to 3 point nice, way to much work.
 
There are very few "absolutes" in aviation, and wheel vs. 3-pt landings ain't one of them. It depends on the aircraft a lot, or so the experts say. And I'm sure it depends on other factors. You can't always compare a Pitts to a Cub, to a Travelaire, to a DC-3. It depends.
 

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