What's up with the yoke?

[whymeworry?]

Looking at the B787 cockpit mockup, I noticed Boeing decided to keep the traditional yoke. No surprise here, really, but come on, what's the point? It's all FBW these days. Why do we even need a yoke anymore? 98% of our time in the cockpit is spent pushing buttons and managing systems anyway. Do you need a yoke to make you feel that you're "in-control" of this big bad airliner? At this point, it seems to me the airbus concept of a joystick is better. Get the yoke out of the way, since it isn't really doing anything anyway, so we can focus more monitoring the flight deck. Most airline pilots seem to let the A/P do the work unti final anyway these day. Seems like a waste of space to me. Wonder when Boeing will move on from this 20th century concept.

I know, I know... now all the Boeing old-schoolers are going to get on here and flame away at me for daring to suggest we get rid of the beloved yoke. Come on, it's not any safer than a joystick. The airbus js has been on line now for nearly 20 years and they aren't showing any more accidents than boeings are.

 

[erj-145mech]

I guess that Boeing pilots are accustomed to a conventional control wheel. They're not designing an Airbus or an Embraer, so they don't need a joystick, Embraer has their funky control wheel, and the Boeing design engineers have heard the ERJ drivers complain about that, so they know that they don't want that, so they stick with what they know. Why re-invent the wheel?

 

[radarlove]

Why re-invent the wheel?

Because maybe you don't need the wheel any more?

Boeing is beginning to remind me more and more of Detroit in the 1970s--"This is the way we've always made cars, why change it?"

The Airbus has its flaws (non-moving autothrottles being the biggest) but Boeing is still producing aircraft with systems that were designed in the 1950s--like the temperature control panel, yech. Airbus has a thermostat, Boeing has "warmer" and "cooler". Duh.

I could go on. I think Boeing got its a$$ handed to them by the Frenchies in the 1990s and maybe they're waking up.

 

[SuperFLUF]

Maybe they do it because control columns can be linked together easier so that you know what the other pilot and autopilot are doing.

Any 777 drivers out there? Does the control column sit at a neutral postition when the A/P is on or does it move with the control surfaces like a conventional airplane?

I recall some airbus incidents that were compounded by the pilots applying opposite inputs and not knowing what the other was doing or attempting to do.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Where else are you going to put the airbag?

 

[100LL... Again!]

Thank you for not spelling it "yolk".

 

[FastCargo]

This is not a trival problem.

Maybe they do it because control columns can be linked together easier so that you know what the other pilot and autopilot are doing.

Any 777 drivers out there? Does the control column sit at a neutral postition when the A/P is on or does it move with the control surfaces like a conventional airplane?

I recall some airbus incidents that were compounded by the pilots applying opposite inputs and not knowing what the other was doing or attempting to do.

This is not a small issue. In multi place aircraft where you can't immediately determine what the other person is doing with control inputs by looking, it has to be VERY clear who has control of the aircraft. There have been incidents in the T-38 (pilots sit in tandem) where either both people were trying to fly the aircraft or no one was flying the aircraft. Some of those incidents resulted in fatalities.

Personally, I think the yoke is a relic. However, side sticks aren't necessarily the best option either. I think a center stick is best. One of the things the B-1B did right in ergonomics was design the front seats so that the majority of functions were identical. Each pilot had their own stick, throttles, and wing sweep. The instrumentation was the same layout as well. The only things that weren't duplicated were the systems instruments and secondary flight controls (flaps/slats/spoilers/gear). Also, the nosewheel steering wasn't a tiller, but instead you engaged a button on the stick which tied the nosewheel steering to the rudder petals.

This allowed a couple of things. One, the front seaters (both AC and CP - Capt and F/O for you civilian types) could fly in either seat. Two, because the sweep, throttles, and sticks were all interconnected, there was immediate visual and tactile feedback for control inputs.

I know the C-17 also uses a center stick layout. I'm not sure if the seats are 'handed' though. But, I have to admit, after getting a ride in an F-16 with the side stick, its REALLY nice...armchair flying! Any C-17, B-1B, or newer Airbus drivers want to chime in with the advantages/disadvantages of the layout?

There are some nice things about the Airbus from what I've seen (using 'arcs' instead of numbers for some quantities and pressures...makes sense)! But there are certain things that concern me. Non-moving autothrottles? I'm not sure that I like the lack of visual feedback of that setup. Hard 'G' limits? Not sure I like that one either...I'd rather have a jet that would give me lots of warnings, maybe take out some of my input, but if I need the 10/10ths performance to stay out of the weeds, then I'm the final word and I can over G the aircraft if I need to.

We now return you to Boeing/Airbus bashing...

FastCargo

 

[erj-145mech]

I think Boeing got its a$$ handed to them by the Frenchies in the 1990s and maybe they're waking up.

I don't ever remember seeing a Boeing crash into the trees at the end of the runway during a demonstration for a go around. By the way, I work on Boeing, Douglas, Embraer and Airbus products, and they all have their idiocrincricies, so I'm neutral on the manufacturer debate.

 

[Steve 737]

I don't ever remember seeing a Boeing crash into the trees at the end of the runway during a demonstration for a go around. By the way, I work on Boeing, Douglas, Embraer and Airbus products, and they all have their idiocrincricies, so I'm neutral on the manufacturer debate.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but if that had been any other aircraft, it would have done a nose first, after stalling, into the runway most likely killing everyone aboard. The fault in that accident was not with the Airbus, but rather the pilot getting way behind the power curve at a very low altitude.

 

[LearLove]

the embraer yoke in the 170 stinks. I don't mind the hand position but the way it pivots (half way down the pedestal, instead of where the yoke meets the top of the pedestal) is really awkward.