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What's the difference?

ch47fe

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Are you still consodered PFT scum if you go to a school to get all of your tickets and then instruct a few hundred hours?

I have read the gammut(sp?) of the hated PFT guy who borrows the money to get all of his tickets and steal the other guys flying job.

Why are folks that borrow money and buy twin time or other training flamed out on the forum?

It seems as if someone is worried about someone else getting ahead of them in an unjust manner.

The free market will deal with the trends imposed on it, even the airlines.
:confused:
 

bigD

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I think that most anti-PFT'ers here have no problem with accelerated programs where someone plops down a ton of cash to get the ratings and a good amount of time.

The problem is when a pilot pays a scheduled airline to sit in the right seat with paying passengers in the back.
 

bobbysamd

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The ABCs of P-F-T

Absolutely not. No matter how much of a stud stick you are, no one is truly born to fly. You have to learn how to fly an airplane. Since airplanes and flight instructors don't come for free, you have to pay for that training. Of course, military is different, but that's another kettle of fish. I paid to learn how to fly; my friend, BigD, above, paid to learn how to fly; every other civilian-only pilot paid to learn how to fly (for our discussion, it doesn't matter if someone worked three jobs to pay to learn how to fly or Mom and Dad wrote a $40K check to FlightSafety). Compare it to becoming a doctor or lawyer. You have to go to medical school or law school to earn your M.D. and J.D. degrees, respectively, and you certainly have to pay for that training.

Pay-for-training is when you are a certificated Commercial or ATP pilot and are offered a job. As a condition of employment you agree to pay for your initial training at that specific job.

Now, I assume that while you're instructing the few hundred hours you are receiving compensation for it. You are a chump if you've paid for your CFI and are paying to be an instructor at the school.

BigD stated the problem exactly. The problem with P-F-T is if a pilot pays an airline or freight company to sit in the right seat during a revenue-earning flight. The right seat, of course, being a normal, required crew position normally staffed by an employee of the company.

There are many reasons why the people you mentioned suffer criticism for P-F-T. Not the least of which is how privilege can let someone cut in line ahead of others. How lowering one's self to having to purchase a job is demeaning. How it hurts pilots struggling to earn fair pay when companies can obtain people who will pay for a job. The list goes on and on. I'll also mention whether any job is worth paying for it.
 
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PilotOnTheRise

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Going to a school, getting your ratings and then instructing for a few hundred hours is not considered PFT. PFT is schools like Mesa and Gulfstream, where you pay your way into an FO seat, that someone who is spending the time instructing deserves. Going to a school, obtaining the ratings and instructing is the away most pilots go. If you go to a part 141 school, such as FSI, it is expensive and requires most everyone to borrow money. However, FSI is not PFT.:D
 

ch47fe

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Airline Training Academy

Well, somone tell me if this is classic 'PFT'.....

You give them alot of money they help earn your tickets. You get time in their CL65 sim and some groundschools for some regional type aircraft. Then you get in line to one day interview for a job with a commuter.

It sounds like the dirty PFT, is taking a job with a commuter and you have to pay for your own type rating?

If that's the case that woudl suk to borrow all of this money to jump through all of the FAA hoops and then turn around to pay a commuter to goto work!?

What kind of deal is that? About how long does this deal go on? I thought these deals were a thing of the past.

I also felt like the Mesa program produced qualified pilots that could be hired into their program to then be type rated for the aircraft they would fly. They bought the training but didn't work for free when they were hired onto the operation.

Am I getting it?

:cool:
 

bobbysamd

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Mesa

No, Mesa is not P-F-T. I worked there. Apart from the training, the only thing that students pay for is the promise that they might get an interview. They are not promised a job or the interview. In fact, I had one student there who every one hated. I had a lot of trouble with this individual and discussed him with my Chief Instructor. The long and short of it is, I was told, this student could finish the program but not get "the inteview." Take my word for it - and I'm someone who did not like working for MAPD.

The Commercial certificate you earn at MAPD is good anywhere. Unless you are hired at Mesa Airlines, you might need a CFI to find work.

FSI, where I also worked, most definitely is not P-F-T. Pay-through-the-nose, maybe, but it is a quality product.

Gulfstream? Well, that's a horse of another color .....

ch47fe, I think you're getting it.
 

PilotOnTheRise

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Through Flight Safety you are not paying the airline itself to get typed and get your ratings and then a job. That is what GulfStream and Mesa pretty much do/do. There is a difference. Yes, it is confusing, but there is a difference.:D
 

bobbysamd

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Mesa

PilotOnTheRise, you are mistaken. There is no "pretty much" about it. I worked at Mesa. I instructed there. It is not P-F-T. The only thing you are guaranteed at MAPD are your ratings. There are several criteria that earn you the interview. Note my use of the word "earn." Among other things, you have to maintain a "B" average in all of your flight courses. Granted, MAPD students do maintain that average and a large number of them are interviewed. But, once again, no one is hired to be a pilot at Mesa Airlines upon signup with MAPD. Therefore, it is not P-F-T.

For something to be P-F-T you have to be hired into an actual job for you to have the privilege of getting to pay for your training.

Once again, you are not hired at Mesa Airlines when you enroll at MAPD!!!! You can always get your Commercial at Mesa and not accept the interview, although you'd be a dam* fool not to! No one is holding your feet to the fire to be interviewed.

For that matter, neither is Comair. Not all Comair-bred CFIs are interviewed or hired at that airline.

Gulfstream, as I said above, is another matter. Even then, you can learn how to fly at Gulfstream's flight school. You don't have to on to the the P-F-T program, though, I'm sure, most people do.
 
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RJPilott

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i think this whole PFT issue would be alot less fuzzy if everyone would call it what it really is...."PFJ"..... Pay For Job.... everyone has done PFT at one point in their career/rising through the ranks... not everyone has paid for their job...
 

Marcus

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P-F-T

ATA is not P-F-T. You don't get a type rating in a CL-65 and when you get an interview and get hired by one of their regional partners you go through that airlines training program and get paid by the airline.
 

bobbysamd

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P-F-T v. P-F-J

I agree with that because it describes the issue the way it is. Everyone "pays" for their flight training, just like those who go to college pay their tuition. You have to differentiate between the training you obtain for your initial ratings versus (paying for) training at a specific company.

How 'bout another classification? P-F-I for pay-for-interview? You have a lot of that as well - and I hate that, too. :(
 

Timebuilder

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>>I have read the gammut(sp?) of the hated PFT guy who borrows the money to get all of his tickets and steal the other guys flying job.

Why are folks that borrow money and buy twin time or other training flamed out on the forum?


Here?

Can you send me a link to the thread where you saw this? I think you misunderstood something, and now you are starting to "get it."

PFT means that you are taking a pilot position that would otherwise be a job for a qualified person, and paying for the priviledge of gaining that experience. This cheapens the profession, and reduces the number of jobs available to pilots who have worked hard to achieve that position.

This is why PFT is frowned upon.
 

slapstick

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what about the guy in my graduating class who literally cheated his way through school, built flight time in daddy's baron, and got a job before any of the rest of us? It's not PFT, but it's not honest. Granted, I'd take all the flight time I could get if my dad had a plane. Cheaters always lose,... but not in this case.
 

Timebuilder

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Respectully, I think he will lose in this case, too.

Cheating is indicative of a character flaw, and it will continue to manifest itself until its presence becomes a factor in his downfall.
 

bobbysamd

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Cheaters never prosper . . .

Two more cliches: What goes around, comes around. Honesty is the best policy. His lack of knowledge will catch up with him, sooner or later.

What kind of a job did he get? Let some airline captain review his logbook and notice that all the Baron time was in one airplane.

Capt.: "Well, Mr. Cheater, where did you work to log all that B58 time?"

Cheater: "Uhh, welll, ummm, my dad owned the airplane and let me fly it........."

Capt.: "So, then, Mr. Cheater, how have you built time working?"

Cheater.: (red-faced and looking down in his lap instead of straight into the interviewer's eye) "Uhhhh ..........", etc.

Then, hopefully, his jig will be up.

Don't worry about it. Do it the way you're supposed to do it and things will take care of themselves. Good luck with your plans.
 

bigD

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Just go out and have a good time flying, man. Everything else will take care of itself. Like Bobby said, you reap what you sow. The pretenders will get weeded out down the line. You can only BS flying for so long.

I watch younger guys pass me up in flight time all the time. I'm just doing my own thing and am having a great time doing it. Eventually I'll be in a position to instruct full time, and maybe in time I'll get a gig at Airnet, a regional, or whatever. But at the moment I just focus on where and when my next flight is going to be. What kind of fun airports can I fly to next? Maybe I should look into learning to fly that Stinson I've been eyeballing for a couple of months? The future will take care of itself when I get the hours to start worrying about it. At the time being, my focus is on building time, and having fun doing it. The more I worry about what that 18 year old in daddy's Baron is doing, the less fun I have. So screw 'em! I'm probably appreciating the time I have in the cockpit more than he does anyway.
 

PilotOnTheRise

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bobbysamd

i realized that i am mistaken. Mesa and COMAIR fall under the same category. you are guaranteed an interview, but not hired. some consider that PFT. gulfstream on the other hand, you pay to fly for the airline, that is PFT.
 

RJPilott

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i've flown with "cheaters".... they dont get respect... nor can they keep up. i cheat at this level, but you have to also define the word "cheat"... at my level they call it CRM.... I know my airplane.. fly it well... but when i do recurrent.. i dont want to deal with the BS of constant study and stress... but you need to have a foundation... and if you lie in your logbook or cheat through your "experience"... those with more experience will know... there is no way around a good solid foundation of being a pilot..... we will know and it will make you look like an idiot...if you cant keep up on the flight deck.. you WILL lose!!!!
 

bobbysamd

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Gulfstream

Yessir, PilotOnTheRise, Gulfstream is P-F-T. I think everyone will agree with that.

Of course (!), Gulfstream has been discussed elsewhere on the board. Happy reading!!!
 

surplus1

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The Comair Story

There seems to be some confusion about Comair, what it did, what it does now and PFT. I won't pass judgement on PFT itself, but let me tell you what Comair used to do, what it does now, and you can judge for yourselves.

1. The Company & the Academy. First of all, the airline Comair does not own the academy and never did. That's just advertising technicality. The Academy was and is owned by Comair Holdings, Inc. as a subsidiary. There are (were) several subsidiaries: a) Comair, Inc. = the airline; b) Comair Jet Express = a fractional, Part 135, and corporate charter company. Operates Citations, Lears, Challengers and Gulfstreams and a chopper. The pilots are not Comair pilots. Now called Delta Elite (since Delta, Inc. bought Comair Holdings, Inc. and all the subsidiaries). c) Comair Aviation Academy = an ab-initio flight school in Sanford, FL.; d) Comair Leasing, Inc. = a company that buys airliners and leases them to airlines, including some to Comair Airlines. e) Airline Training, Inc. = a company that trains CSRs, ticket agents, ramp service people, etc., for the airlines (including Comair), I think this is now inactive.

2. Back to the Academy. You can go there with zero hours (or any other level) and get your PPL, CPL, CFI (A&I) and MEL ratings. It's expensive. The training is geared to produce new hire pilots for Comair as well as other airlines. It does some training for foreign carriers as well under JAA rules.

a) IF you complete the ab-initio program at the Academy and meet the school's criteria, you can be hired as a Flight Instructor at the Academy (there is no guarantee this will happen). If you work as a Fight Instructor and meet their "standards" (which include more than just flying), for a total of 1 - year AND you have 1,000 hours + (I think) 200 multi-engine, they will guarantee you an interview with Comair airlines. An interview, not a job. If you get through the interview, you'll get a job as an FO and you don't have to meet the "minimums" (published or competitive) that someone "off the street" would have to meet. This is the only way you can get hired by the airline with real low time/experience. Published minimimums are now 1200/200. Competitive minimums are around 3000 +, so it definitely helps if you have low time and came from the Academy.

Opinion: This is a good program. We get lots of new pilots through it. Those that complete the program and get hired, usually do well in training and with the airline. I've flown with many of them and they do a good job. What seems to help them most is the standardization and procedures at the school, which match the airline's procedures as much as possible given the difference in aircraft type.

b) What they used to do. Every airline is required by the FAA to give you initial training and IOE (initial operating experience) before they can put you on-line as an FO on a scheduled Part 121 flight.

Part of this initial training includes systems and simulator training in the aircraft that you are going to fly.

Comair sought and obtained from the FAA, a waiver of the FARs that allowed the systems and simulator training to be conducted at the Comair Academy. The instructors in this program were all qualified line Captains or First Officers and qualified instructors, employed by the airline and active.

If you wanted to fly for the airline, BEFORE they hired you, you had to enroll at the Academy and complete this part of the training there. It included the required simulator time in the type (no type rating). You could not attend this program [unless you had already completed the interview and were placed in the pool]. However, completion of the program did not "guarantee" you would be hired. It actually guaranteed nothing except that you would spend 10 grand. When you completed this training, through and including a simulator check ride in the type, satisfactorily, the airline would then hire you in almost every case. However, it was possible to wash out and get nothing. Many people did due to poor performance in the simulator. The cost of this "program" was about $10,000. You were not paid anything by the airline while attending and you were NOT an official employee of the airline. There was NO guarantee that you would actually be hired after completing the training. HOWEVER, the airline would absolutely NOT hire any pilot, regardless of past experience, unless that pilot first completed this program. While at the Academy, you were not a Comair pilot.

After you were "hired", you would go to a three day basic indoctrination ground school (at the airline, not at the Academy) and then directly to IOE on-line. During this phase you were an employee of the airline and you were paid at a training rate of pay. You got a seniority number on the day you started basic indoc. and became a Comair pilot.

This program has been discontinued (several years ago). They dropped it due to supply and demand. That program did not exist when I was hired.

c) Today. The program for instructors at the Academy still exists. We still hire many of the "best" instructors from the Academy, but NOT all of them.

If you are hired "off the street", it used to be, that sometimes this training still took place physically at the Academy. That is no longer the case. In 2000, the airline opened a new training facility on the airport in CVG. All ground training is now conducted there. Comair controls (leased from FSI) 3 CL-65 simulators (Class D) located in CVG.

Note: The Comair pilots' contract has ALWAYS specified that the airline, i.e., Comair, Inc., may NEVER charge a pilot for any required training or equipment. A "new hire" pilot is paid, while in training and until he begins IOE (25 flight hours minimum), at the rate of $240 per week (no per diem). This is really a "meal allowance" but they don't call it that. Regular hourly pay rates ($21.75/hr now) begin when a new hire starts IOE.

A pilot (not new hire) is paid a minimum of 4-hours flight pay for each day in training (or actual block time if greater), plus away from base lodging (hotel - and not Motel 6) and per diem ($1.60/hr x hrs on duty) while in training . If the training is away from the pilots base (TDY) the Company also provides a rental car for each 3 crews (shared) or for 1 pilot if there is only one. The pilot also receives positive space must ride airline transport to and from the training location and a specified number of days off while in training.

Notes on the Training Program

Section 11 of The Comair pilots working agreement covers training. You will get a copy of the pilot's contract during Basic Indoctrination. You will also get (free dinner) with pilot representatives from the Comair union (probably during your first week). You should go to this meeting and you should review Section 11 of the contract. ALL the rules governing your training are included in Section 11. The Comair pilot's contract contains one of the best training sections in the industry, bar none. I can't include all of that because it is quite long, but these are some highlights that may be of interest to new hires.

The training curriculum is subject to oversight and contains input from Comair pilots, not just management.

Only Comair pilots or retired Comair pilots may serve as Simulator Instructors and they are not management pilots. The same applies to Check Airmen. FAA can monitor, but not give check rides. Only the best people we have are chosen as instructors. All are highly respected line pilots and they maintain their proficiency on the line. There are no people who "live" in the training Dept. and never fly the line.

All pilot training is "training to proficiency". This doesn't mean you can train forever. There are standards and you have to meet them, but there is no wierd stuff. If you have trouble, additional training will be provided. There is a Training Review Board of Management and Pilot representatives. If you have serious problems, the TRB will make the final recommendations and decision. If you don't have problems, you'll never know the TRB is there. Management can't out-vote the pilot reps. You'll never be railroaded by anyone for any reason. Training is a pleasant experience, not a pressure cooker to put your job at risk. There are no instructors or check airmen doing their own thing. It's all open and for your benefit. It costs more than $30,000 dollars to provide your initial training and the Company as well as your fellow pilots want you to succeed. If you need help at any time, just ask and you will get it. The quality of the Training Department is the equal of any.

You'll know your schedule well in advance and get to bid for some things like FTD and Simulator times, even as a new hire.

There are adequate days off and mandatory rest periods. You won't be in a classroom more than 5-days in a row. Training on the back side of the clock is seldom scheduled = nothing between 0100 and 0500 unless you need re-training. Performance Evaluations (check rides) on the back side of the clock are prohibited. No check rides between 0100 and 0759. Never more than 8 hours in a classroom. Never more than 4 hours in a Sim (flying 2 of them). All sim sessions have pre and post briefing, no surprises. They are video taped. You get to see the video and it is erased afterwards.

We don't train in live aircraft. You'll get some bounces after you finish sim. No emergencys or V1 cuts ever in live aircraft.

If you're a professional, training will be a pleasant experience. We want you to learn so it's not about "testing" you. It's about helping you to do it easily and proficiently.

Good luck and hope you enjoy it.

Now, is the program we used to have PFT? You tell me. The one we have now definitely is NOT.
 
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