What's the difference?

[bobbysamd]

Comair training

Great post, surplus1. I read and enjoyed every word. Great discussion on Comair's training opportunities. Very straightforward and well written. Good information.

The same is true with MAPD as with CAA. The only promise Mesa makes to enrollees is after they complete the program they might get an interview with Mesa Airlines. No job guarantees at all. I get tired of people accusing MAPD of being P-F-T - and I don't even like the company.

Yeah, from the way you described item (b), the former program, I'd say it was P-F-T. I remember it from the really bad old days from P-F-T of ten years ago. For one thing, you had to pay the $10K. You were interviewed but not promised anything. That is P-F-T. Not being paid and maybe not being hired after completing the program is part of P-F-T. This part from your post, " . . . . the airline would absolutely NOT hire any pilot, regardless of past experience, unless that pilot first completed this program . . . . " is P-F-T in every way.

It sounds like a program Mesa had several years ago. I understand the newer Mesa PACE program is similar. Of course, Mesa, at its school in Farmington, had an ATP program, which was basically pay-for-interview. You pass your ATP on the first try and you got an interview with Mesa. Bust, and you get a recheck but no interview. You're still out the money. Some people passed - and some people busted. Mesa still made money off all of them. Pay-for-interview may be worse than P-F-T.

I also liked reading how the Comair training is positive, that people are trained to proficiency, and, within reason, people are given a chance to succeed. That's how training should operate.

Once again, very good post.

 

[surplus1]

Thanks Bobby,

I agree with you that the earlier program we had was PFT. The pilot group really couldn't do anything about it because the contract already prohibited any payments and the people doing the paying were not employed by the airline. It was a good way for them to get around the contract and save a lot of money. I will say that we did hire a great many good pilots out of that program though, and it is NOT held against them by anyone here. The way we look at it may not be popular, but it's like this. If you want to work at SW and you don't already have a 737 type, you have to buy one or they won't hire you. Back then, if you wanted to work for CMR, you had to buy a Brasilia type or they wouldn't hire you. Only real difference was you had to buy it from CMR Academy (and didn't really get it) and SW doesn't have that requirement.

They dropped the program when the supply of candidates dried up. It was never used in the RJ, because we didn't hire directly into the RJ while we had Brasilias. First they dropped it for folks with over 3000 hours, then they dropped it all together. No effort has been made to start it again and I doubt there will be, now that Delta is paying the bills. Besides, based on our jet training programs, it really isn't feasible. No one would be abel to afford it.

To the best of my knowledge, the only place you could maybe buy a CL-65 or CL-700 type, would be from the manufacturer. Their program is very different from ours and would cause much more trouble than it would be worth. They're kind of old school, in that they teach people how to build airplanes. We teach how to fly the one's that we have configured in our way. Their procedures are quite different and often conflicting. Even the checklists are substantially different and the instructors are not airline pilots, they're mostly corporate pilots. Very knowledgable to be sure, but way to many useless numbers for my thinking capacity. You forget those "nice to know" numbers two days after the ride anyway. Never in my life have I ever used the knowledge of how many pounds of pressure it takes to open some obscure valve, that I can't see, can't touch, and can't operate myself.

We used to have a full AQP program, but it was so expensive to keep the records that we went back to the standard PC checks every six months. Everything else from the AQP stayed in place. You just take one more ride a year. Actually, I like the idea of a chance to get in the sim every 6 months. One year was really far apart and you could get pretty rusty on emergency procedures.

I like to train (most people think I'm nuts) and the rides don't bother me. They are very straight forward and if you can fly the airplane and your willing to study the memory items (which are very few anyway) you ought to be able to do the required items with no problem. Only the lazy few ever bust PCs. Somehow they always make it the 2nd time around, which tells me they just didn't prepare the first time.

I have a lot of hours in a lot of big airplanes and the good training has kept me alive. I can think of a lot of scenarios where without it I'd have been up to my @ss in alligators. I never regret an opportunity for training.

We also have a very good CRM program and I believe in that. We get lots of updates from the program managers and whenever something new or special comes out, we get training above the required. Nobody ever gave me a new FMS and a book and told me to go flying.

Comair is not my first airline and the other had much bigger airplanes. I honestly haven't seen a much better training program and I do have a lot of experience in the training department, though not at Comair.

BTW, I enjoy most of your posts. I think your "heart" is really in the cockpit and I wish you could get back to it in some form.

Best regards,
Surplus1
CMR

 

[Timebuilder]

Thanks to both of you. I always hope that shedding a little light on these situations will benefit those who are trying to further a career in aviation.

Knowlege is power.