Whats all this BS about the BS degree?

[dmspilot00]

Re: Degree

I mean, seriously, this conversation has gotten very harsh. Degrading people because they have a lack of education is just wrong, and extremely un-called for. There is no room for that kind of behavior. Lack of education is NOT the same as lack of intelligence.

As I said before, I degraded no one on the basis of their lack of education. It's their attitudes--the attitude of "I didn't go to college but I am still smarter than everyone else and it's a worthless waste of time anyway because I don't need it and I don't want it." It is not fair, and downright offensive to those of us who actually took four years out of our life to go to school.

Someone in here said something like "Anyone who chooses not to go to college is ignorant". That is just wrong. Really wrong. Don't ever say that. There are some people out there who can't afford to go to college.

You are putting words in my mouth, here. That's not what I said and it's not fair to accuse me of saying that. What I did say, however, is that people who are more intelligent realize that going to college is the right thing to do, both for personal growth and career growth.

I don't believe you people (e.g. rumpletumbler), saying you are too intelligent to go to college, and that people who go to college are incapable of learning on their own. Interesting. It seems you are missing something. THE PURPOSE OF COLLEGE IS NOT TO MAKE THE DUMB PEOPLE SMART!! DUH!!!! YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT COLLEGE IS ONLY FOR "DUMB" PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO DUMB TO LEARN ON THEIR OWN? GIVE ME A BREAK--PURE STUPIDITY!

(Edit: Just as surplus will point out, I am not saying that everyone who has a degree is smart. It's what you make of it, and if you were smart, you would try honestly to make something of it!)

As far as not being able to afford it--absurd!! Most people can't afford to NOT go to college. Sure, a person may not be able to afford his or her dream school, but that is different. No one said you had to pay cash to go to school, either. There is MORE than enough grant and loan money to cover the average schools, and with especially today's interest rates, it would be silly to say you can't afford it. The interest rate on my college loans is 4.75%!

When it comes to English, there's a difference between making a grammar error and not being able to communicate clearly and confusing everyone. The latter is the most important thing. A grammer error here and there is fine for an internet forum. However if you have those kinds of errors all over the place then the grammer problem becomes a communication problem.

 

[TwinTails]

As for the Aviation Degree thing. Maybe it's just me but I haven't seen a UND educated pilot yet that has even come close to impressing me. Be it with flying skills or knowlage, and I've flown with hundereds.
I will say though that those with that degree or any for that matter will get he job before the guy without it. Get a degree, have something to fall back on. What if you accuire a heart murmer sometime down the road?

 

[aggiepilot87]

Don't shift tense in the middle of a sentance. And don't go to college if you don't want to. It is a great experience, though, so think about it.

By the way, were you home schooled?

Now you're confusing me, Jboss. I thought you were correcting the man's grammer, then you turn around and insinuate that he may have received an education better than what is offered by public schools.

 

[Chunk]

Slide33,

"I'm amazed that this TIMP guy didn't get his @$$ frag'd."

Spoken like a true "box of rocks!" Your comment demonstrates EXACTLY why enlisted soldiers get a bad rap. If the situation doesn't agree with them the first thing they will do is bad mouth the closest officer and want to frag him. An education would serve you well. I suggest you get one ASAP!

I gave you the opportunity to edit your initial condescending post, but you chose not to. Now you open your lips and insert your hoof between them again.

You reacted pretty strongly to the frag remark...what's the matter, too close to home? Heard that before, have you? Leadership isn't exclusive to the officer corps, and rank garners no instant respect. Respect is earned. With your attitude, I doubt you earned much.

I feel quite strong on this topic, as I've run into your type before.

Chunk

 

[inline]

To TIMP: Having a college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane competently and safely. Having flown with hundreds of pilots over the years with all sorts of educational backgrounds, I'm convinced of this fact. Unfortunately, the people who make the hiring descisions at a lot of airlines are ex-military pilots and they bring this attitude with them. By the way, since you have to be an officer(hence a 4 year degree)to fly in the Air Force, Navy and Marines, these same people have never flown with anyone else!


Also incredibly, If you've earned an A&P degree in lieu of a Bachelor's degree, it doesn't matter. It's not good enough.

 

[chawbein]

You are all a bunch of numb-nuts, it's GRAMMAR not GRAMMER. It's funny to read posts from several people arguing about who is smarter and none of them can spell correctly. I will give the benefit of the doubt though seeing as how this is an informal environment and spelling EFFECTIVELY i.e. phonetically is enough.

I too hate "Grammar Nazis", and I hated to make this post. However, I thought it was exceptionally ironic to make mispellings and grammatical errors when trying to convince someone else that an education or lack thereof is a mark of intelligence.

Have a nice day.

 

[surplus1]

Interesting thread. I respectfully submit there is a difference between being schooled and being educated. A certain amount of both serves one well in life. The former fulfills application requirements and is necessary. The latter determines who you are and will become.

Intellect is not a product of schooling but is developed because of it. However, the finest intellect remains effectively unused without education.

The schooling required to earn a degree may well be wasted if one chooses not to become educated in the process; something easily done.

Good luck to all.

 

[Caveman]

I wish I had a nickle for every time some educated young officer came crying to me, "Top, what do I do now?".

Having said that, get the dang degree. An HR rep has 42 million resumes on his desk and is just itching to toss a few into the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**can. Guess which ones will be the first to go?

 

[tazman]

Wow! So much debate and so much rancor. Weighing in on this debate is interesting because I am not in commercial aviation but just a lowly (just started) private pilot student. However, after reading through the three pages of this thread, I can't resist!

On the employer's side: if you've ever been a hiring manager and have narrowed your applicants down to two equally qualified persons, one with degree and one sans degree, who would you hire? Someone in the thread indicated that a degree demonstrated the ability to focus and exhibit self-discipline over four years. I couldn't agree more.

Another young lady indicated she couldn't afford to earn a bachelor's degree because of cost. My suggestion is to apply to a private school -- this is because private schools on average give out much more aid than public schools that are already subsidizing tuition through their respective legislators. My own personal story on earning my B.A. is four schools (yes, an enlisted puke) and 7.5 years of going at night, weekends, whenever. My masters was easier -- 6 years, one school.

On education = bachelors degree = intelligence... If a school graduates a person without educating them, the academy has failed. This generally is apparent in accredited versus non-accredited schools. Those schools that are accredited have demonstrated that in the vast majority of cases degree = some level of education. This is not to imply that one doesn't gain meaningful experience outside of a college classroom. Rather, the intent is that someone with a bachelor's degree is 'educated' to some degree. Ditto for those with associates or high school diplomas. They have all been educated, just to a different level!

Lastly...enigma -- doctoral candidates write dissertations, not a thesis; a thesis is written at the masters level.

 

[JBHewlett]

ok ok Dmspilot00

I got the picture. I must have misunderstood, somewhere what you said, and I sincerely apologize. I hate accusing anyone of something they didn't do; it just makes me look bad.

However the point I am trying to make here is that we should all keep an open mind. Others may have their reasons why they didn't go to college, and they shouldn't be brought down because of it. I do agree with your point about people saying that they are smarter then everyone else when they haven't gone to college. Thats arrogant. I am not a big fan of arrogance. However that in no way means that they are less smart. Maybe we shouldn’t talk about how smart we are. Maybe we should let others talk about how smart we are. Trust me there wouldn't be as many fights that way.

NOW, that being said, I noticed that you are college student. That’s great; I wish the best of luck with your chosen field of study.

Have a great one,
J.

 

[dmspilot00]

Re: ok ok Dmspilot00

I got the picture. I must have misunderstood, somewhere what you said, and I sincerely apologize. I hate accusing anyone of something they didn't do; it just makes me look bad.

I'm sorry if I was so hard on you, personally. I didn't mean to accuse you of accusing me of anything, but I just wanted to make sure I was being absolutely clear. Thank you for the kind words. Good luck to you too in whatever you're doing.

I also did not mean to be hard on people who truly can't afford college at the current moment, and what I was trying to say was that you can't use it as an excuse for the duration of your life. I suppose it is different when you are fresh out of high school and have no debt. When you realize later in life that you should have gone to college, even if you now cannot afford it, then that is a step at least in the right direction. At least you desire an education, rather than being arrogant and claiming you don't need or want one, like some people.

 

[JBHewlett]

Not a problem

Hey Dmspilot00. Not a problem. Thanks for the "good luck" thing!

We'll be talking to you!
J.

 

[temcgrew]

wow, this is getting tough. how about we move on to a topic with less potential conflict like the ole pitch for airspeed, power for altitude debate!!! or is it the other way around?

Intellect is not a product of schooling but is developed because of it. However, the finest intellect remains effectively unused without education.

nuff said.

 

[Freightdog75]

Broke, my middle name. Still paying off the incredible debt accumulated from past flight training. Looks like for the time being a 2-year program might be the best I can do. Any opinion on how potential future employers may view a 4-year to a 2-year?

 

[DC9stick]

A degree in the airline world has everything to do with a way to cull through the resumes and nothing to do with intelligence or skill level. Prior to 9/11/01 when everything was going well, every one was hiring and the future looked rosey anyone who could get through an interview, regardless of education level, could get a job. The majors even lowered thier minimum education requirements. Today with thousands of pilots of near equal qualifications applying for a few positions different standards are applied, if you want to be competitive you are going to have to have that bachelors degree. It does not matter if it is in aviation or Amazon valley insect identification, some carriers actually seem to prefer things like the latter.

Please excuse the speling and sentance structuer as I ain't too edgemacated mysef!

 

[Guam360]

TIMP,
watch your step, coming from a Had Hat Diver in the Navy, it doesn't take a college degree to save lives!! The "O's" wanted to play on dive station, but just got in the way.

In our industry, I would say that common sense plays a bigger part of being a good aviator, not saying that a higher level of education is not necessary. A college degree is a great thing to accomplish and is part of the requirements, so whoever needs one go for it, but just don't knock enlisted for not attending college.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Coming from the military (a good environment for a case study between those who have a degree and those who don't) I can tell you flat out that there is a significant difference between the overall intelligence of "Officers (all have college degrees) compared to "enlisted soldiers (who mostly do not have degrees). It's night and day, my friend. And you can't fight it.

Wow, what arrogance!

We get College degrees to qualify for better jobs. Some of us go to school to learn more about the World we live in and gain from the experiences of bright minds who have gone before us. However, none of that adds up to better piloting skills. Ask General Yeager his opinion, or just pick up a copy of his book.

I would dare say that I'm one of the more over qualified pilots on this board (if getting degrees has anything to do with flying). From that perspective, I can say that having my background did help me get through part 121 initial training. Your first FO ride in a E120 is much more difficult than any Board, or examination, that I had ever experienced.

As some astute poster observed it is emotional intelligence that becomes valuable on the line. Given TIMP's post, I would guess that his “us v. them” attitude does not foster teamwork, or a healthy working environment.

In the Ivy League, many folks are simply educated far beyond their intelligence. If they believe they are "smarter" as a result of memorizing books, experience will be their eventual comeuppance.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Great post Fins, well said.

 

[tdvalve]

This thread is evidence of one of the darker aspects of the human psyche. That is, the tendancy to boost self-esteem at the expense of others. This tendancy is encouraged in the military: Wearing large symbols of rank, demanding salutes, and calling their living spaces "officer's country", are the most evident , but this is far from the whole story. Civilians generally look on all military members as social misfits who work for peanuts and live in squalor because they can't make it in the real world. (This view is usually moderated in times of war.) In the officer community the service academy graduates lord it over their ocs counterparts, while the ocs guys look with disdain on the mustangs. Being an ex-enlisted officer is pretty close to to being an ex-con in the civilian world.) Most O's look on the enlisted folks as sub-human serfs, even as they depend on them to win the wars. Take away the NCO's and the military couldn't protect the PX, let alone the nation.

Now as far as a degree goes, it's demanded for the better jobs by most U.S. employers and it's useful to have one. It's certainly possible to succeed wildly without one, but why not stack the deck in one's favor? After all, a BA/BS is easy to get. Beyond that purpose, a degree isn't worth much unless it's in a practical course of study that meshes with one's career. In truth, the first two years of a four year course of study amounts to remedial high school. If you attended a good high school and paid attention, you already know more than a high percentage of the folks who hold associates degrees. The second two years of a non-professional course of study are useful mostly because study habits will improve and one starts to realize how much there is to learn. Anyone who considers himself educated by virture of holding a BA/BS missed something along the way. Like a PPL, a bachelors degree is nothing more than a license to learn.

 

[bobbysamd]

Degree

Broke, my middle name. Still paying off the incredible debt accumulated from past flight training. Looks like for the time being a 2-year program might be the best I can do. Any opinion on how potential future employers may view a 4-year to a 2-year?

A two-year degree is barely better than just high school, but still better than no degree at all. If you get a two-year, get it in something useful, such as computer science or accounting or something. I love Aero Science and push it hard, but it's different when two-year is the best you have available at the moment.

Try checking into local colleges. Talk to their financial aid office. Maybe there are loans you can get for your B.S. or B.A. In-state residents' tuition at many schools is relatively cheap. Maybe you can work out something so you can go to school. There are plenty of financial aid programs and government assistance. The government wants people to use their programs.

Good luck with school.

 

[chawbein]

If you are going to get a two year degree, get it with the intention of going to a four year school to finish. A guy I work with got an associates in computer information systems, and now he is going back to get his bachelors in computer science. He is haveing to take all of the remedial classes (i.e. history, calculus, etc...) because they weren't a part of his associates degree. My point is to keep the option to finish up your bachelors if at all possible.

 

[enigma]

Lastly...enigma -- doctoral candidates write dissertations, not a thesis; a thesis is written at the masters level.

congratulations, I are now edukated and you can consider yurself a grammer Natsi.

 

[dmspilot00]

Chawebein offers good advice. I would strongly suggest you take a variety of courses and focus on general ed. classes--maths, sciences, language, etc. This way you will learn about a variety of subjects and you also may find something else that interests you. If and when you go to transfer to a four-year school you will be better off, also.

College isn't about just memorizing books. It's completely different than high school. Book work is only half of it. College classes do not consist of teachers reading books as did high school classes. In most of my classes, we are lectured on the things that one can't learn from a book. If college consisted of merely reading and memorizing books there would be no professors; only proctors.

Like the military person said, there is a significant difference in the intelligence levels of people who attended college and those who did not. Keep in mind this is a generalization so don't get offended. I'm sure there are some "smart" people who didn't go to college but they are rare.

No, going to college does not automatically turn a dumb person into a smart person (although it would if he/she works very hard to change it). The fact is that smarter people are the ones to make the decision to go to college, and the less smart people are the ones to decide to not go to college.

Keep it mind this is 2002 and I say this because I've seen it myself. This may not be true for those of you in their upper 30s, or in their 40s, or older, because not as many people went to college back then, so I'm not trying to offend anyone. I'm just telling how it is right now. You don't see a person get As and Bs and have good SAT scores and then not go to college. They always do. You also don't see people who get straight Ds go to college, either. They usually don't. (Don't turn this into a debate of "test scores/grades don't matter," as that's not the issue).

 

[Freightdog75]

Thank you all for the info and advice! One more quick question. Anyone here taken any distance learning courses(internet), or know someone who has? Opinions? Reason being -- Full time pilot, got into the profession young to hopefully "get ahead oif the game." I can't imagine pulling out of it to go to a full-time, sit in class school right now. It would make all of the hard work to get this far, this early, seem pointless. Advice again? Thanks all.
Freightdog75

 

[Freightdog75]

As a reply for dmspilot00 -- I never took SAT's. Took the ACT, and scored a 29. Graduated high school with a 3.19 Cummulative and 3.75 for senior year. School work is not the problem, money is. No attitude intended if it read that way.

 

[dmspilot00]

I am a commuter student so I usually take one or two distance learning classes from the school I am attending per semester. You definitely have to be disciplined and it's easy to get way, way behind. Most of my classes involved essays and answering essay questions as the primary grading criteria. There is TONS of writing, so keep this in mind if you don't like to write. However it may be different from other schools.

As far as paying for it: Unless you are using the cost as an excuse because you just don't want to go (or feel you are smart enough without it), my comments aren't directed at you . Please do look into loans if you can't pay out of pocket because interest rates are very low.

I was just using SATs as an example of how good students go to college (or, WANT to at least) and bad one's don't want to. My hostilities are mostly directed to the individual(s) who think they are "too smart" to go to college, because I feel strongly about this topic. It still baffles me that someone can be so arrogant as to say they are smart enough without college. Isn't it interesting, then, that the smarter you are the MORE likely it is you will attend college? It's not the other way around!

 

[gsrcrsx68]

freight dog

Two things,
One it just occurred to me, dmspilot is a college student. That explains everything. Dms, how old are you? If you haven't had a job, don't pay for college out of money you've made from work and think college itself give you standing in any area, you have a lot to learn. Please respond honestly, Job? Money? Work? Age?
Two, yeah fr8t Dog I am actually taking classes online right now. The most important thing is the accreditation. The school I am going to is accredited to be accepted by all Colorado schools. It is CCCOnline. www.ccconline.org
I am 34 and think online learning is great. I went to embry riddle when I was 19 and ran out of money. You gave some good reasons for going online, I'll add one. There really aren't too many things more annoying than young punks with almost no experience at anything acting all pumped up on themselves because they read a book.
Education absent experience may not be the most worthless thing in the world but it is **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** close .

 

[JBHewlett]

Distance Learning

There are some great distance learning prgrams out there. I have never taken any of them though. Embry Riddle has a pretty extensive distance learning program. If you will go back a few issues of AOPA Flight training magazine you will find some information about it.

The text discussed how useful the learning program was for people already employed.

Personally I have no clue how these distance learning programs work. I understand that they are great. Can some of you who have taken them give me some details about them?

Enjoy,
J.

 

[MetroSheriff]

College was not an option for me, financially, right after high school. Neither was flight training. I enlisted in the Marine Corps. The G.I. Bill paid for 2 years of college (night school) and G.I Flight Training benefits paid for about $10,000 of the $15,000 total for all my ratings (training was a little cheaper in the mid 80's). I worked as an CFI in my free time my last 2 years in the service. That route was tough, but it is possible for those that can't afford college. So that option is available.

I have been working toward completing my Bachelor's at ERAU via distance learning. It is expensive, make no mistake, but the course work is good, the instructors that I have had are top notch. I a married, raising kids and have a full time flying job. It is not easy to maintain the discipline to study with such a full plate, but once again it is possible.

If you are on the fence, take it from me, it is WELL worth the effort. I only have 18 units left, and finally see the light at the end of the tunnel and it feels great. If you are interested in talking to a counselor at ERAU, PM and I will give the gals name who has been helping me for the last 18 months. No pressure, and very helpfull, it may be all you need to get the ball rolling.

As for TIMP, the b00b that started the whole officer/enlisted thing. I am neither jealous, nor pissed, at officers. I got along great with them both as an enlisted NCO in the command structure, and acting as their CFI at Kadena Air Base (they were the only ones who could afford flying lessons even at Aero Club rates). I just don't like elitest snobs, enlisted or commissioned, that's all. I would expect an educated man such as you, to easily comprehend the difference. Savvy?

As for intelligence, I don't feel a lick smarter than I did before I got my schooling under my belt. That is not to say I didn't learn anything, I learned a lot, but nothing that would have changed who I am, or with whom I could hold an intelligent conversation. I feel a great sense of pride in what I have forced myself to accomplish, but that has to do with nearly completing a goal I set for myself, not something a professor taught me.

As the old saying goes: "Everything you really need to know in life, you should have learned in kindergarden".

P.S.

TIMP,

If God is an Irish-Catholic, you'll never be on a major's hiring board the day I show up. I can't imagine you would extend an invitation to the garden party to someone of my pedigree.

 

[JediNein]

Howdy!

I no longer recommend ERAU's distance program. Supposedly they went online and changed their courses over to that format.

No, they took their distance programs, added an online discussion forum, but their videos are a camera focused on a professor sitting at a desk for hours of droning on and on and on. . . The "neat-o whiz bang" powerpoint presentations are slapped together in a black and white poorly copied course book that you get to receive for an extra $40-100. Most of the undergraduate courses lack the videos. I've not enjoyed the "Riddle Runaround" in most every facet, most likely due to the fact the staff thinks we won't show up on their doorstep and get answers to such questions as when are tuition payments due, why am I double-billed for a class, what books are required, and so on.

UNO's Online Aviation Institute is online learning done right. Their online classes are considered the same as if you attended classes in person. The number of students in each class is quite small. The tuition is at the in-state resident rate, no matter where you live. Financial aid is also at the in-state, off-campus rate. IOW, have the government pay interest for the student loans while attending classes. Having access to the instructors during their office hours made the difference in two of my courses there. Being able to correspond within a matter of days instead of weeks allowed questions to be answered before missing a deadline on a homework assignment. Another plus is the courses are a full semester's length long. This allows time to complete assignments while working full or "normal ~80 hours" time. www.unomaha.edu/~unoai

Bakersfield College and most of the other community colleges in CA offer online courses. The rate? $11 per credit hour. Avoid Cerro Coso College as their class sizes are much too large and overwhelm the instructors.www.cvu.com

HTH,
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein