Whats all this BS about the BS degree?

[tdvalve]

_________________________________________________
"I believe in the 80/20 rule:

About 80% of people having degrees are intelligent, capable, reliable, and professional. The other 20% are not.

People without advanced education reverse the percentages.

You can't rule out one group altogether, because there are gems and bums in both groups. But if you are an employer hiring people for an important job, one your customers need to be able to trust also - which goody bag do you want to pull from?

- Brett"
_________________________________________________


I couldn't disagree more! After a lot of years as a professional pilot and many more in aviation management, I've never noted any significant difference in the intelligence, capability, or professionalism of those who hold degrees and those who don't. And, I'd give the edge on reliability and work ethic to those without a degree.

 

[Kaman]

Education

Hello,
I've ignored this thread since it was started, however, my curiosity got the better of me and I read a bit today. What I read from a couple of folks made the hair stand-up on the back of my neck.
Education vs. intellect is an argument that has gone on for a long time. Speaking from personal experience as an enlisted flight crewmember, civilian pilot and holder of a B.S. in Aviation Mgt. I feel qualified to respond to a few of the posts regarding enlisted intellect vs. officer education. First of all, I was amazed continuously at the LOW quality of intellect that many officers that I served with muddled by with. In fact, I was downright amazed that many of them made it through college, "boat school" (Naval Academy) and god help us, flight training. The arrogance of an individual to assert that because a commisioned officer has a college degree instantly posesses them with superior intellect is not only arrogant, but offensive.
Personally, I felt that the preparation I put into preparing for my initial CFI was much more demanding than my college education and just about all my military training, which was considerable. As an aside, the folks that made these remarls are obviously unaware or never opened their division officer's notebook (another joke in of itself) to take notice of just how many of their subordinates had not only a college degree, but perhaps an advanced degree to boot.
In my military specialty, we did everything that a Naval Flight Officer was trained to do and MUCH more and just about any NFO or pilot that flew in any ASW aircraft will attest to this. About the only thing we couldn't do was drop weapons from the aircraft.
This is one post that really raised my ire to the seething point and once again displayed the typical ignorance of the average J.O. (junior officer) that was fed a line of BS during ROTC, OCS or USNA. The biggest problem is most of the officers I knew (J.O.s) in particular were more worried about A.) chasing the "holy grail" or career path B.) Pissing off the X.O. C.) What they were going to wear to the next "hail and farewell D.) Oh yeah, the guys in my division!
Don't read this as a imbittered message from a disgruntled sailor. It's not, I'm simply telling you how it is and was in much of my service. I also had the privilege of serving with combat-experienced veterans, some outstanding Naval officers and aviators and some **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed fine enlisted Naval Aircrewman. The peacetime military is breeding ground of "careerists" and not warriors. This I did discover to my disappointment.

Fly Navy, the Best always have...

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[Chunk]

Amen, Kaman....

Chunk

PS--This guy taught a few of the courses I took in the Navy....he BS's not....

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Degree

The guy above me wrote:
"And, I'd give the edge on reliability and work ethic to those without a degree."

I couldnt disagree more, I have found that people without degrees tend to be less reliable and have questionable work ethic. I think many people you see that didnt go to college or dropped out did so because of a lackluster work ethic. I was around Division I athletes my college career and saw some of the most dedicated people in the world, especially the ones that went on to finish and graduate. You had to be dedicated and a hard worker, the athletes that quit school tended to be the quitters in general. They didnt have the work ethic to suceed in the course work or college athletics. Most of us that went as jocks are both physically and genetically gifted and could get by in high school with a questionable work ethic. Well in college most everyone is physically and genetically gifted so to suceed you had to bust your tail.

The guys that quit athletics I think are like a lot of people that didnt go or didnt finish college. They have bad work ethics and are not dedicated at life in general. Sports are like a small microcasm(sp?) of life and college some people have what it takes to suceed, some dont.

 

[gsrcrsx68]

ok, I'll play

bj fighter(between your handle and your pic you should choose one cause I know you don't mean it the way it looks or sounds)
Vs.
tdvalve

let's vote on whose opinion would carry more weight. Give each persons profile a quick study.

BJ, get over yourself. I would say most people participate in athletics. People quit for all sorts of reasons. Some of us quit wrestling simply because getting sweaty with other dudes sux or just plain old played other sports that were way cooler. I am gonna have to say the same thing I said to another person earlier in this thread. Experience...you seem lacking, I am not talking about flying either.

Of course if you can tell me what years you won NCAA wrestling titles, I will apoligize and declare you great, otherwise you belong with the rest of us in the world.

I will say work ethic is an individual matter.

No more posts from me on this thread!

 

[70Cuda]

Good Grief!!! I can't believe this thread. Any person who says a 4 year degree, or any amount of schooling, is worthless is a complete idiot!!! From reading this thread I gather we have a lot of idiots flying out there.

College will always make a smart person smarter, unless you floated those years away inside of a beer keg, or you just didn't care about bettering your stupid self.

I work in the HR dep. at my airline. If you don't have a college degree your several steps behind those that do. I don't care how many kids you raised as a single parent going through flight shool, or whatever your sob story is, your still behind the power curve!!!

In case some of you morons still don't get it, I'll spell it out for you. We do not just hire people who can wiggle sticks. If that were the case we'd stick a robot or monkey in our cockpits. We try to hire intelligent and progressive people who will represent us in a positive light. Our pilots, just like our FA's, are the company/customer interface. We want employees who can articulate a sentense, converse intelligently with the public, problem solve, and possibly write an accident report using proper grammar, etc, etc. In other words, we want Professionals! That means we want employees who strive to BETTER themselves.

Sorry, Rumpletumble, with jacked-up posts like yours you'll never make it at my airline!!! I'm sure you don't know what I'm talking about otherwise you never would have questioned the worth of higher education. You'll know who I am because from now on I'll be asking the interviewees what they think about education.

Remember this: "Those that don't-have will always be jealous of those that do-have." For those of you with a degree, and a respectable transcript to back it up, you will always be fighting this battle against those without degrees.

With that said......GO GET THAT DEGREE!!!!

"JEEZ!!!"

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Degree

70Cuba wrote
"Remember this: "Those that don't-have will always be jealous of those that do-have." For those of you with a degree, and a respectable transcript to back it up, you will always be fighting this battle against those without degrees.

With that said......GO GET THAT DEGREE!!!! "

AGREED! The have nots will always be jealous losers.

 

[Dep676]

Wow, what an arrogant SOB 70Cuda. Tell us what airline you work at so we don't apply there.

Education is very important, it's not everything. It doesn't matter what you got hanging on the wall at home. If you can't fly the airplane. Your passengers would like that huh? They can't fly or land the plane but hey they got a degree hanging on the wall at home. Boy I am glad I just got bounced down the runway 3 times. I guess he was just getting in his currency requirments in the same landing.

I am sure you know all about people though. You probably got a degree in HR and that makes you an expert on all. Get a life. To call someone a moron because they don't have a degree. Is that what they taught you in college? Man can I be like you when I grow up? We all didn't have silver spoon hanging out of our A$$. Some of us had to pay our own way through college. Mommy and Daddy didn't foot our bills.

 

[MEI96]

You all are missing the point! A college degree may not make you a better pilot heck, it may not make you a better person. But it will definitely help you out when you can no longer fly i.e. lose your medical, get old, lose your license (for whatever reason, being drunk maybe one of them), or get furloughed for an extended period. At least you have something to fall back on. If you don’t you’re screwed! That’s why I have a BS in Finance and a MBA in Financial Engineering in addition to my flight certificates. It may not make you a better pilot but it’s important to have something to fall back on so you can keep those paychecks coming.

 

[bobbysamd]

Having "the degree"

Indeed, the degree with help you, in ways you might not imagine.

I went to college the same time most people do and earned a B.S.B.A. in Accounting. I started with that program and stuck with it, although I decided to pursue radio in about my second year of college. I figured it would be a good fall-back and the business training would be valuable. I never used any of that training except to do my own tax returns in broadcasting or in aviation, except that my accounting background helped me balance my logbook. Of course, my degree filled that all-important square on airline apps, which seems to be the primary reason this discussion got started.

I left flying and became a paralegal. Then, twenty-two years after I earned my degree, I finally put it to work at work, preparing accountings for probate and preparing trust tax returns. It also helped me understand the various business entities with which law offices deal. My point is you may not think you'll ever use your college education, but, chances are, you will.

 

[kamikaize]

Ok I guess I'll bite!!!!! One of the richest men in the world dropped out of harvard to start his own company.... Any guesses??? Bill Gates. I do believe that you shouldnt be discriminated against if you do not have a college degree. We should be hired for who we are and the experience's we have had in aviation. I know alot of pilots out there that do not have a degree and they are doing just fine. I do understand why companies like to hire people with degree's. It shows them that the person is disciplined and can handle the tasks in their training. On the other hand I think you are who you are with or without a degree. I played sporst in HS and in college before I was injured and quit school. I decided to get all my ratings and start building time to get ahead of all the people going to college. It worked for me!!! Now that I have the time, experience and a good job, I can finish my degree. So I dont feel we should judge a persons ability and education by a piece of paper!!!!

 

[Dep676]

Well Said

Hey well said kamikaize!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Beechnut]

The more people that think like Rumpletumbler, the easier it will be for me to get a job.

S.

 

[enigma]

Ok I guess I'll bite!!!!! One of the richest men in the world dropped out of harvard to start his own company.... Any guesses??? Bill Gates.

Not to argue for arguments sake, but I've seen this example given too many times; and it's a false analogy.

We can both find numerous examples of non-degree'd people who have achieved excellence in the ENTREPRENUARIAL (spelling?)world.
Bill Gates, Rush Limbaugh, etc.

But the airline pilot world is 180 degrees away from the world of entreprenuers. They succeed as individuals, while we can only succeed as members of a larger organization. I would love to find some way to become entrepranuerial as an airline pilot, but I don't want to run an airline, so I guess that I stick to doing a little pilot service work in the corporate world on my days off.

The issue of education vs. experience is valid for discussion. I too wish that the airlines would find a better way of screening resumes, but that's the way it is; and there's not much we can do about it.

regards
8N

 

[JBHewlett]

Good analogy

Cases like Richard Branson and Bill Gates are so rare its hardly worth mentioning. Like enigma said they are single people. As far as being an entrepranuer you will have to start an aviation bussiness, and if you want to be an entrepranuer and fly you will have to also deam your self the chief pilot of you avaition venture. I would suggest if this is what you want to do, to start a single pilot CFR part 135 operation, flying a Be-58 or a C-310. I know these kind of 135 operations can work.

Being an Aviation entrepranuer requires some funding to begin with and unless you live in a busy area, making and endevor like this may be hard to make practical. Paying off the loans, etc, that have occumulated during the start up phase of the bussiness may be difficult to pay off if your bussiness projections aren't as up to par as you thought they were going be.

However the rewards from a bussiness like this would be fullfilling in knowing that you created it. Although it would take alot of hard work.

Fly safe,
J.

 

[70Cuda]

Dep676,

Please take off your beer glasses, then reread my post and point out where I wrote people without degrees are less intelligent then those who have one. As for the rest of your post, it shows you "assume" beyond your mental capacity to reason. Do I need to remind you about what is said about people who assume to much.....?

Let me shed some more light on this subject from 6 years of HR
statistics.

Of the pilots we hired during the past 6 years who have failed to pass our FO training/aircraft transition course 83% had less then 1 year of higher eduaction (beyond high school).

88% had less then 1000 hours TT.

Because of stats like these (among many others) we use such discriminators (among many others) to attempt to select pilots who will successfully pass our training on the first attempt. Will we pass over someone who may potentially make a great pilot, of course!! We just don't have the TIME or MONEY to give everyone a chance. Welcome to the REAL WORLD!!

Folks, in no way am I saying pilots without degrees, or low flight time, are less intelligent. The rigorous pace of our training demands that our pilots have good study habits, dicipline, and motivation to hit the books hard. A college degree, along with respectable grades, gives us a small, I repeat, a small insight into a candidates ability to do this. We use many other discriminators to validate our selectees.

Dep676 and Rumpletumbler are good examples of why we also require our interviewees to read a short passage and then write a short essay explaining what they just read. A lot of information can be gleaned from the written word. Why, you might wonder, should we care about a persons ability to interpret accurately what they have just read. Well, in part, I repeat, in part because we don't want our employees constantly missinterpreting our policy letters,OPS, flight manuals, etc, and causing unwarranted trouble. We've had issues in the past because of this. Today, I can brag the my company has one of the finest group of pilots in the World.

In closing, I would like to pass along what I think is the most important quality a person should have that will ultimately land them that interview and dream job (besides having good networking skills).

1. Never stop improving yourself. Whether it's reading a good historical novel, practicing your mental math, or getting a college degree. Believe me, it will "come out in the wash!"

Regards, 70Cuda

 

[Dep676]

In case some of you morons still don't get it, I'll spell it out for you. We do not just hire people who can wiggle sticks. If that were the case we'd stick a robot or monkey in our cockpits. We try to hire intelligent and progressive people who will represent us in a positive light. Our pilots, just like our FA's, are the company/customer interface. We want employees who can articulate a sentense, converse intelligently with the public, problem solve, and possibly write an accident report using proper grammar, etc, etc. In other words, we want Professionals! That means we want employees who strive to BETTER themselves.
/B]

Well let's see the first sentence here. You mention for you morons.

I did go to college and I will be the first to admit that I didn't well in english. My wife is always hounding me about it. I can however, fly an airplane.

I don't think not going to college should disqualify somebody though. Like someone said earlier you are the same person with or without the degree. There are plenty of upstanding pilots that I have flown with that have no degree's at all and they are outstanding employees. So to say that just because someone doesn't have a degree they won't respresent the company well. Is complete BullSh!T. They are much more professional people than others that I have come in contact with that have a degree. You HR people sit in your offices all day and think up stupid tests for applicants to take. That have nothing at all related to the job which you are applying for. That's a real judgement of the applicant. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!

By they way why not spill the beans on which airline you work for. So the next time I happen to fly on said airline. I can notice all these upstanding employees you claim to have working for you.

 

[70Cuda]

Dep676,

Again, nowhere in my post does it belittle those without degrees. The "moron" refers to those who question or devalue higher education, or any education, for that matter. They come in all shapes and sizes, with degrees and without.

And again, we do not judge solely on the basis of having a degree or not. It is one of several discriminators we use. Do we hire pilots without 4 year degrees......yes we do! Only if they have a recommendation from one of our pilots, though. We simply do not have the time to sift through the 3000+ applications in our office.

I agree with you about there being HR types out there that come up with irrelative criteria for judging applicants. I question Comairs method. Everyone on our hiring staff has at least a PPL. I have an ATP, and on occasion still fly the line.

We have specific qualities that we require our line-pilots to have, and we use proven screening methods that are very effective. Contrary to what you may believe it is very difficult to identify competent pilots given the short amount of time we have. One sim ride and a few tec questions won’t do it. That conclusion comes from experience

It's always easy to criticize others without offering solutions. Given 3000-4000 applications and 3 months to hire 200 pilots who can safely fly your aircraft and represent your company in the best possible light, tell me your method!! And remember, your job is at stake.

By the way, you'll know who I am if you come for an interview. Look for the 70Cuda in front!!

 

[rumpletumbler]

70Cuda,

If you will look at my first post you will see that you have assigned your own meaning to what I have said. I never said that education was not important. What I did say was that I thought that getting a degree with my level of education would be a waste of time. If you still don't get my point then just know that there are lots of folks out there who are much more educated than you are who have never stepped foot into a school. Before you blow a rod I didn't say that I was one of those people but they are out there. I might be but I'd have to know more about you to make that call. I can tell that I'd be a whole lot more fun to be around at a party though.

P.S. Cars are just a mode of transportation. A to B. Don't waste your bucks on a 70 "cuda." When I was sixteen I was lucky enough to be able to get a car and I got a family type car. Why? Because I didn't need any help to get a girl and wanted to filter those types of people out before they ever reached me. That's stupidity discrimination in a true form not like in whether someone has a degree or not.

RT

 

[TurboS7]

I havn't read the other post but having four years of college and not having a dgreee I will speack from experience. Without a degree you will make max between 50K and 100K unless you are in business for yourself, then all bets are off. The real problem is that once you are older with a family it becomes harder and harder to find the time needed even to think of studying. Do it now and once you have it you have it.