Whats all this BS about the BS degree?

[dmspilot00]

Thanks for you insight JediNein. Very interesting.

The government will only subsidize interest on student loans if someone can claim you as a dependant. Also, there are limits on the amount of the subsidized loan you can take out. If you can't get enough money from government loans (subsidized or not), you can get an alternative loan through a number of sources, including Sallie Mae, TERI, and GATE. Sallie Mae only gives loans if you're enrolling in a 4-year program, TERI will give loans for 2-year programs. Not sure about GATE, but I did not go with them because their interest/terms were not as good.

People much older, wiser, and more experienced than me have expressed very similar opinions when it comes to education. My age and how I pay for it has nothing to do with it and it's none of your business.

 

[kl7741]

I personally would highly recommend ERAU's distance learning program. I enrolled at the end of 1998 and I am still enrolled; taking one class at a time and working towards a BS degree.

I thought it was a great program before they went online, and I still think it's a great program. It just takes a little getting used to especially if your used to the traditional distance learning stuff.

As far as their videos are concerned, I do remember one or two classes (I've taken 14) that have had some boring videos, but the videos were only a part of the whole syllabus; I would expect some boring lectures during face-to-face classes too.

I personally have never had any problems with the billing department. At ERAU they assign you an "academic advisor" that handles your account. All of your dealings go through that person. Mine (Andrea) is great! She has been there since I started with them, and I can always reach her on the telephone.

 

[gsrcrsx68]

ERAU

I will say this about Riddle. Paying for their paper is well worth it. People always recognize the name, especially in aviation. As for the Riddle run around, all I can say is the people in Az were always nice. True that you need your checkbook but then again that is the price you pay as a civilian getting in to aviation.

as for this:
<<My age and how I pay for it has nothing to do with it and it's none of your business. >>

Actually it has as much to do with it as does your level of education. You are voicing some strong opinions not only about education, but about people. Nobody is going to disagree college is better than no college. However sweeping generalizations regaurding people and the types of education that people get seem silly. I venture a guess that when you put a few more miles under your belt and life opens yours eyes for you over time(as it does for everyone) you will be able to appreciate more of the different paths life takes people on.

Think on this: The point the world is at is because of the work of all people, not the minute percentage of people who have walked the earth with a college degree. Certainly it is only a fraction of a percent of the people throughout history that have ever had a degree.

 

[dmspilot00]

If I only think the way I do because of my age, then how do you explain the other 50% of people on this thread that are older than me expressing similar opinions?

My being older isn't going to affect all the people who say, later in life, "I wish I had gone to college. I made such a mistake." I've heard it too many times. Hardly any people in my family in previous generations went to college, and they are ALL sorry for it. Not a single person thinks college is a waste of time, and not one can think of a good reason why one should not go to college. There's people that want to go, but can't, and that's a different story--I wish those people good luck.

I predict that many of the people that say college is a waste of time will change their minds, eventually. Like I said before, rumpletumbler seems to think that only "dumb" people go to college because they aren't smart enough otherwise. Anyone with an IQ of at least 10 realizes that nothing can be further from the truth.

There are also people who go to college, coast along while barely passing; attending parties getting drunk all the time, and they aren't any better than people who did not go to college at all. Shame on them.

To me, there is nothing better than the excitement that comes from learning and being in a college environment (on campus or not). For people to dismiss this and say it's worthless caused me to be furiated enough to make the generalizations I made.

It's the same as me telling all of you that learning to fly is a waste of time, and that you don't need to "learn to fly" to experience flying. It's an expensive waste of money and job opportunities are highly limited. Some non-pilots might think the same thing, but saying that to a group of pilots would outrage them. So would telling dedicated, honest college students, or people that have gone to college and enjoyed it, that college is a waste of time.

The difference is that for many people, not going to college means you will have a very limited and difficult future.

Thank you for your time.

 

[JediNein]

Three small thoughts...

Subsidized student loans are available for ALL students, not just dependents or independent students. The amount available will vary.

Boring lectures in actual classrooms, yes, I've had my share of them. Online courses, correspondence courses, undergraduate in-classrom, graduate in-classroom, none are immune. However, a student can change the prof's tune during an in-class session. Same thing with the online sessions and various correspondence courses. A set of 10 videos? No luck.

UNO is 1/3 the price of ERAU...

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[gsrcrsx68]

dmspilot00

Now those seem to be intelligent thought out points, laced with a bit more understanding for others. Good luck to you with both your studies and your flying.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Degree

Im very proud of my degree. I made o.k. grades and graduated with a 3.1.
Im proud of my degree because I also participated in Division I athletics. It wasnt that the course work was so hard, for me college taught my time management if nothing else. We trained 6 hours per day during the wrestling season.

We had balls to the wall conditioning practice every weekday morning from 6am to 8am. I went straight to class stinking like crazy because there was no time to take a shower. I attended class from about 8 to noon everyday. Went straight back to the dorms after class, took a shower, then would cook fresh skinless boneless chicken, steam one cup of rice and make a small salad. After eating my lunch I made a protein shake to take with me to the gym to lift weights. After lifting I would study in the library a few hours before heading to the real wrestling practice with started at 4 and ended anywhere from 6 to 7. After practice back to the dorm room to cook a nutricious (sp?) meal. After eating and taking a shower more book time.

My whole point o this was college taught me excellent time management skills and how to priortize things. There was never enough time in the day to do everything I needed to do. I just got real good at priortizing my life which I think makes people successful at life in general. Im off to the gym now, sorry for the rambling, go get a degree it will make you proud of it if you have to work for it like I did.

 

[aero99]

wow.

There are some very good points on both sides of this discussion. I think BJJ's comment that getting his degree provided him skills in time management and prioritization is dead on. Life experience is something one cannot buy or study. What you choose to learn by every experience determines your success...not a piece of paper stating you followed curriculum.

I didn't go to college, yet I feel I have been successful in what I have done in the past and will be successful in the future and it has nothing to do with the fact that I do or don't have a degree.

When I was deciding if I wanted to pursue a professional career as a pilot, I knew I would have to get the degree in order to be competitive in the market place. It is a hurdle to jump through and what you learn during that process is up to the individual, not the lesson plan.

The only reason I would go to college at this point would be for my personal satisfaction of accomplishing it. I would bet that my resume and my past work ethics is more important than a degree is and I don't know too many people that made over 150k a year without a degree. I was lucky and in the right place at the right time and I applied myself to the tasks at hand to get there.

I left that job because I learned that chasing the might $ doesn't bring you happienss. I am doing what I want to do now, and for the time making less money.

To go back to the orignal question, I would not attempt to fly for a living without a degree if you plan on or want to fly for the majors. Could it be done- sure, but why sell yourself short in a market that is already hard to find any paying job.

At my last job I was at a Directors level and managed a group of around 15 and had clients and sources all over the world. When I interviewed people to work with me, the degree was a non-issue. I wanted someone that I thought could communicate, work indepently and that would continue to learn throughout the years. Some of the best people I ever hired didn't have degrees.

All this being said, I do want to get me degree someday- just to say I did it.

 

[jsoceanlord]

someone mentioned richard branson; he was never asked for a resume, so i heard that he never asks applicants for one. but he's an ex hippy.

to me, college shows an employer you're a little less free spirited and enslaved and have to pay off your tuition and are less likely to walk, etc ,etc, etc.

in latin america it's who you know, not what you know.

ATP's used to be a rare requirement for jobs, now it's almost mandatory

i'm in the 10% group of pilots without a degree

 

[brett]

I believe in the 80/20 rule:

About 80% of people having degrees are intelligent, capable, reliable, and professional. The other 20% are not.

People without advanced education reverse the percentages.

You can't rule out one group altogether, because there are gems and bums in both groups. But if you are an employer hiring people for an important job, one your customers need to be able to trust also - which goody bag do you want to pull from?

- Brett

 

[tdvalve]

_________________________________________________
"I believe in the 80/20 rule:

About 80% of people having degrees are intelligent, capable, reliable, and professional. The other 20% are not.

People without advanced education reverse the percentages.

You can't rule out one group altogether, because there are gems and bums in both groups. But if you are an employer hiring people for an important job, one your customers need to be able to trust also - which goody bag do you want to pull from?

- Brett"
_________________________________________________


I couldn't disagree more! After a lot of years as a professional pilot and many more in aviation management, I've never noted any significant difference in the intelligence, capability, or professionalism of those who hold degrees and those who don't. And, I'd give the edge on reliability and work ethic to those without a degree.

 

[Kaman]

Education

Hello,
I've ignored this thread since it was started, however, my curiosity got the better of me and I read a bit today. What I read from a couple of folks made the hair stand-up on the back of my neck.
Education vs. intellect is an argument that has gone on for a long time. Speaking from personal experience as an enlisted flight crewmember, civilian pilot and holder of a B.S. in Aviation Mgt. I feel qualified to respond to a few of the posts regarding enlisted intellect vs. officer education. First of all, I was amazed continuously at the LOW quality of intellect that many officers that I served with muddled by with. In fact, I was downright amazed that many of them made it through college, "boat school" (Naval Academy) and god help us, flight training. The arrogance of an individual to assert that because a commisioned officer has a college degree instantly posesses them with superior intellect is not only arrogant, but offensive.
Personally, I felt that the preparation I put into preparing for my initial CFI was much more demanding than my college education and just about all my military training, which was considerable. As an aside, the folks that made these remarls are obviously unaware or never opened their division officer's notebook (another joke in of itself) to take notice of just how many of their subordinates had not only a college degree, but perhaps an advanced degree to boot.
In my military specialty, we did everything that a Naval Flight Officer was trained to do and MUCH more and just about any NFO or pilot that flew in any ASW aircraft will attest to this. About the only thing we couldn't do was drop weapons from the aircraft.
This is one post that really raised my ire to the seething point and once again displayed the typical ignorance of the average J.O. (junior officer) that was fed a line of BS during ROTC, OCS or USNA. The biggest problem is most of the officers I knew (J.O.s) in particular were more worried about A.) chasing the "holy grail" or career path B.) Pissing off the X.O. C.) What they were going to wear to the next "hail and farewell D.) Oh yeah, the guys in my division!
Don't read this as a imbittered message from a disgruntled sailor. It's not, I'm simply telling you how it is and was in much of my service. I also had the privilege of serving with combat-experienced veterans, some outstanding Naval officers and aviators and some **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed fine enlisted Naval Aircrewman. The peacetime military is breeding ground of "careerists" and not warriors. This I did discover to my disappointment.

Fly Navy, the Best always have...

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[Chunk]

Amen, Kaman....

Chunk

PS--This guy taught a few of the courses I took in the Navy....he BS's not....

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Degree

The guy above me wrote:
"And, I'd give the edge on reliability and work ethic to those without a degree."

I couldnt disagree more, I have found that people without degrees tend to be less reliable and have questionable work ethic. I think many people you see that didnt go to college or dropped out did so because of a lackluster work ethic. I was around Division I athletes my college career and saw some of the most dedicated people in the world, especially the ones that went on to finish and graduate. You had to be dedicated and a hard worker, the athletes that quit school tended to be the quitters in general. They didnt have the work ethic to suceed in the course work or college athletics. Most of us that went as jocks are both physically and genetically gifted and could get by in high school with a questionable work ethic. Well in college most everyone is physically and genetically gifted so to suceed you had to bust your tail.

The guys that quit athletics I think are like a lot of people that didnt go or didnt finish college. They have bad work ethics and are not dedicated at life in general. Sports are like a small microcasm(sp?) of life and college some people have what it takes to suceed, some dont.

 

[gsrcrsx68]

ok, I'll play

bj fighter(between your handle and your pic you should choose one cause I know you don't mean it the way it looks or sounds)
Vs.
tdvalve

let's vote on whose opinion would carry more weight. Give each persons profile a quick study.

BJ, get over yourself. I would say most people participate in athletics. People quit for all sorts of reasons. Some of us quit wrestling simply because getting sweaty with other dudes sux or just plain old played other sports that were way cooler. I am gonna have to say the same thing I said to another person earlier in this thread. Experience...you seem lacking, I am not talking about flying either.

Of course if you can tell me what years you won NCAA wrestling titles, I will apoligize and declare you great, otherwise you belong with the rest of us in the world.

I will say work ethic is an individual matter.

No more posts from me on this thread!

 

[70Cuda]

Good Grief!!! I can't believe this thread. Any person who says a 4 year degree, or any amount of schooling, is worthless is a complete idiot!!! From reading this thread I gather we have a lot of idiots flying out there.

College will always make a smart person smarter, unless you floated those years away inside of a beer keg, or you just didn't care about bettering your stupid self.

I work in the HR dep. at my airline. If you don't have a college degree your several steps behind those that do. I don't care how many kids you raised as a single parent going through flight shool, or whatever your sob story is, your still behind the power curve!!!

In case some of you morons still don't get it, I'll spell it out for you. We do not just hire people who can wiggle sticks. If that were the case we'd stick a robot or monkey in our cockpits. We try to hire intelligent and progressive people who will represent us in a positive light. Our pilots, just like our FA's, are the company/customer interface. We want employees who can articulate a sentense, converse intelligently with the public, problem solve, and possibly write an accident report using proper grammar, etc, etc. In other words, we want Professionals! That means we want employees who strive to BETTER themselves.

Sorry, Rumpletumble, with jacked-up posts like yours you'll never make it at my airline!!! I'm sure you don't know what I'm talking about otherwise you never would have questioned the worth of higher education. You'll know who I am because from now on I'll be asking the interviewees what they think about education.

Remember this: "Those that don't-have will always be jealous of those that do-have." For those of you with a degree, and a respectable transcript to back it up, you will always be fighting this battle against those without degrees.

With that said......GO GET THAT DEGREE!!!!

"JEEZ!!!"

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Degree

70Cuba wrote
"Remember this: "Those that don't-have will always be jealous of those that do-have." For those of you with a degree, and a respectable transcript to back it up, you will always be fighting this battle against those without degrees.

With that said......GO GET THAT DEGREE!!!! "

AGREED! The have nots will always be jealous losers.

 

[Dep676]

Wow, what an arrogant SOB 70Cuda. Tell us what airline you work at so we don't apply there.

Education is very important, it's not everything. It doesn't matter what you got hanging on the wall at home. If you can't fly the airplane. Your passengers would like that huh? They can't fly or land the plane but hey they got a degree hanging on the wall at home. Boy I am glad I just got bounced down the runway 3 times. I guess he was just getting in his currency requirments in the same landing.

I am sure you know all about people though. You probably got a degree in HR and that makes you an expert on all. Get a life. To call someone a moron because they don't have a degree. Is that what they taught you in college? Man can I be like you when I grow up? We all didn't have silver spoon hanging out of our A$$. Some of us had to pay our own way through college. Mommy and Daddy didn't foot our bills.

 

[MEI96]

You all are missing the point! A college degree may not make you a better pilot heck, it may not make you a better person. But it will definitely help you out when you can no longer fly i.e. lose your medical, get old, lose your license (for whatever reason, being drunk maybe one of them), or get furloughed for an extended period. At least you have something to fall back on. If you don’t you’re screwed! That’s why I have a BS in Finance and a MBA in Financial Engineering in addition to my flight certificates. It may not make you a better pilot but it’s important to have something to fall back on so you can keep those paychecks coming.

 

[bobbysamd]

Having "the degree"

Indeed, the degree with help you, in ways you might not imagine.

I went to college the same time most people do and earned a B.S.B.A. in Accounting. I started with that program and stuck with it, although I decided to pursue radio in about my second year of college. I figured it would be a good fall-back and the business training would be valuable. I never used any of that training except to do my own tax returns in broadcasting or in aviation, except that my accounting background helped me balance my logbook. Of course, my degree filled that all-important square on airline apps, which seems to be the primary reason this discussion got started.

I left flying and became a paralegal. Then, twenty-two years after I earned my degree, I finally put it to work at work, preparing accountings for probate and preparing trust tax returns. It also helped me understand the various business entities with which law offices deal. My point is you may not think you'll ever use your college education, but, chances are, you will.

 

[kamikaize]

Ok I guess I'll bite!!!!! One of the richest men in the world dropped out of harvard to start his own company.... Any guesses??? Bill Gates. I do believe that you shouldnt be discriminated against if you do not have a college degree. We should be hired for who we are and the experience's we have had in aviation. I know alot of pilots out there that do not have a degree and they are doing just fine. I do understand why companies like to hire people with degree's. It shows them that the person is disciplined and can handle the tasks in their training. On the other hand I think you are who you are with or without a degree. I played sporst in HS and in college before I was injured and quit school. I decided to get all my ratings and start building time to get ahead of all the people going to college. It worked for me!!! Now that I have the time, experience and a good job, I can finish my degree. So I dont feel we should judge a persons ability and education by a piece of paper!!!!

 

[Dep676]

Well Said

Hey well said kamikaize!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Beechnut]

The more people that think like Rumpletumbler, the easier it will be for me to get a job.

S.

 

[enigma]

Ok I guess I'll bite!!!!! One of the richest men in the world dropped out of harvard to start his own company.... Any guesses??? Bill Gates.

Not to argue for arguments sake, but I've seen this example given too many times; and it's a false analogy.

We can both find numerous examples of non-degree'd people who have achieved excellence in the ENTREPRENUARIAL (spelling?)world.
Bill Gates, Rush Limbaugh, etc.

But the airline pilot world is 180 degrees away from the world of entreprenuers. They succeed as individuals, while we can only succeed as members of a larger organization. I would love to find some way to become entrepranuerial as an airline pilot, but I don't want to run an airline, so I guess that I stick to doing a little pilot service work in the corporate world on my days off.

The issue of education vs. experience is valid for discussion. I too wish that the airlines would find a better way of screening resumes, but that's the way it is; and there's not much we can do about it.

regards
8N

 

[JBHewlett]

Good analogy

Cases like Richard Branson and Bill Gates are so rare its hardly worth mentioning. Like enigma said they are single people. As far as being an entrepranuer you will have to start an aviation bussiness, and if you want to be an entrepranuer and fly you will have to also deam your self the chief pilot of you avaition venture. I would suggest if this is what you want to do, to start a single pilot CFR part 135 operation, flying a Be-58 or a C-310. I know these kind of 135 operations can work.

Being an Aviation entrepranuer requires some funding to begin with and unless you live in a busy area, making and endevor like this may be hard to make practical. Paying off the loans, etc, that have occumulated during the start up phase of the bussiness may be difficult to pay off if your bussiness projections aren't as up to par as you thought they were going be.

However the rewards from a bussiness like this would be fullfilling in knowing that you created it. Although it would take alot of hard work.

Fly safe,
J.

 

[70Cuda]

Dep676,

Please take off your beer glasses, then reread my post and point out where I wrote people without degrees are less intelligent then those who have one. As for the rest of your post, it shows you "assume" beyond your mental capacity to reason. Do I need to remind you about what is said about people who assume to much.....?

Let me shed some more light on this subject from 6 years of HR
statistics.

Of the pilots we hired during the past 6 years who have failed to pass our FO training/aircraft transition course 83% had less then 1 year of higher eduaction (beyond high school).

88% had less then 1000 hours TT.

Because of stats like these (among many others) we use such discriminators (among many others) to attempt to select pilots who will successfully pass our training on the first attempt. Will we pass over someone who may potentially make a great pilot, of course!! We just don't have the TIME or MONEY to give everyone a chance. Welcome to the REAL WORLD!!

Folks, in no way am I saying pilots without degrees, or low flight time, are less intelligent. The rigorous pace of our training demands that our pilots have good study habits, dicipline, and motivation to hit the books hard. A college degree, along with respectable grades, gives us a small, I repeat, a small insight into a candidates ability to do this. We use many other discriminators to validate our selectees.

Dep676 and Rumpletumbler are good examples of why we also require our interviewees to read a short passage and then write a short essay explaining what they just read. A lot of information can be gleaned from the written word. Why, you might wonder, should we care about a persons ability to interpret accurately what they have just read. Well, in part, I repeat, in part because we don't want our employees constantly missinterpreting our policy letters,OPS, flight manuals, etc, and causing unwarranted trouble. We've had issues in the past because of this. Today, I can brag the my company has one of the finest group of pilots in the World.

In closing, I would like to pass along what I think is the most important quality a person should have that will ultimately land them that interview and dream job (besides having good networking skills).

1. Never stop improving yourself. Whether it's reading a good historical novel, practicing your mental math, or getting a college degree. Believe me, it will "come out in the wash!"

Regards, 70Cuda

 

[Dep676]

In case some of you morons still don't get it, I'll spell it out for you. We do not just hire people who can wiggle sticks. If that were the case we'd stick a robot or monkey in our cockpits. We try to hire intelligent and progressive people who will represent us in a positive light. Our pilots, just like our FA's, are the company/customer interface. We want employees who can articulate a sentense, converse intelligently with the public, problem solve, and possibly write an accident report using proper grammar, etc, etc. In other words, we want Professionals! That means we want employees who strive to BETTER themselves.
/B]

Well let's see the first sentence here. You mention for you morons.

I did go to college and I will be the first to admit that I didn't well in english. My wife is always hounding me about it. I can however, fly an airplane.

I don't think not going to college should disqualify somebody though. Like someone said earlier you are the same person with or without the degree. There are plenty of upstanding pilots that I have flown with that have no degree's at all and they are outstanding employees. So to say that just because someone doesn't have a degree they won't respresent the company well. Is complete BullSh!T. They are much more professional people than others that I have come in contact with that have a degree. You HR people sit in your offices all day and think up stupid tests for applicants to take. That have nothing at all related to the job which you are applying for. That's a real judgement of the applicant. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!

By they way why not spill the beans on which airline you work for. So the next time I happen to fly on said airline. I can notice all these upstanding employees you claim to have working for you.

 

[70Cuda]

Dep676,

Again, nowhere in my post does it belittle those without degrees. The "moron" refers to those who question or devalue higher education, or any education, for that matter. They come in all shapes and sizes, with degrees and without.

And again, we do not judge solely on the basis of having a degree or not. It is one of several discriminators we use. Do we hire pilots without 4 year degrees......yes we do! Only if they have a recommendation from one of our pilots, though. We simply do not have the time to sift through the 3000+ applications in our office.

I agree with you about there being HR types out there that come up with irrelative criteria for judging applicants. I question Comairs method. Everyone on our hiring staff has at least a PPL. I have an ATP, and on occasion still fly the line.

We have specific qualities that we require our line-pilots to have, and we use proven screening methods that are very effective. Contrary to what you may believe it is very difficult to identify competent pilots given the short amount of time we have. One sim ride and a few tec questions won’t do it. That conclusion comes from experience

It's always easy to criticize others without offering solutions. Given 3000-4000 applications and 3 months to hire 200 pilots who can safely fly your aircraft and represent your company in the best possible light, tell me your method!! And remember, your job is at stake.

By the way, you'll know who I am if you come for an interview. Look for the 70Cuda in front!!

 

[rumpletumbler]

70Cuda,

If you will look at my first post you will see that you have assigned your own meaning to what I have said. I never said that education was not important. What I did say was that I thought that getting a degree with my level of education would be a waste of time. If you still don't get my point then just know that there are lots of folks out there who are much more educated than you are who have never stepped foot into a school. Before you blow a rod I didn't say that I was one of those people but they are out there. I might be but I'd have to know more about you to make that call. I can tell that I'd be a whole lot more fun to be around at a party though.

P.S. Cars are just a mode of transportation. A to B. Don't waste your bucks on a 70 "cuda." When I was sixteen I was lucky enough to be able to get a car and I got a family type car. Why? Because I didn't need any help to get a girl and wanted to filter those types of people out before they ever reached me. That's stupidity discrimination in a true form not like in whether someone has a degree or not.

RT

 

[TurboS7]

I havn't read the other post but having four years of college and not having a dgreee I will speack from experience. Without a degree you will make max between 50K and 100K unless you are in business for yourself, then all bets are off. The real problem is that once you are older with a family it becomes harder and harder to find the time needed even to think of studying. Do it now and once you have it you have it.