What would you do?

[Badger]

whats the hurry

Get a real college education at a 4 year university or state school in a business/nursing/pharmacy...something OTHER than aviation. This distance learning thing is kind of hokey sounding, if you're interviewing for a position outside aviation which is very likely in your career. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Besides, why would you throw the whole college experience away? girls, drinking, friendships, connections.

Someone posted a writeup from the Denver Post about a UAL guy that got furloughed, 8 years min. to kill if he ever gets called back. No decent education (had aviation degree) no skills, 2 kids, a wife. If you search, read it. Unfortunate that it happens but a fact of the industry.

my .02

 

[Badger]

And about these academies...

All of them are grossly overpriced.

They are inflexible and probably not concerned with the individual.

What value do they add to the certificates and ratings achieved?

You cannot go from PVT->MEI in 90 days (or whatever they promise), and be a competent pilot or instructor.

Look at it this way...

Find an FBO, pay as you go (you can finish ratings in a timely manner).

BUT...find an FBO that operates twins in a 135 operation (freight or passenger)

You will be appreciated, they will want to help you move on, you will save thousands of dollars. They will know you as an individual.

Why end up 30K in the hole, it'll be many years before you can afford to pay anything on the loan. (I can't even believe someone underwrites these things on pilot training, I'm sure there must be a guarantor and it's probably prime +5% min)

These academies are a bunch of greedy, BS factories as proven by their ads in the flying magazines, why the He## would you consider handing someone like that 60K?

Good luck regardless, we've all got opinions.

 

[ChadCRJ]

Academies/FBO's

Badger,

I see what your saying about the FBO route. Yes its cheaper but yet your going to be there for a loonnng time. The academies atleast have some what of a connection to regionals. I have a couple of friends that have gone through academies and are now at regional airlines. One guy I talk to just got picked up this year by Pinnacle only 19yrs of age. The other friend of mine was 20 an picked up by Comair. I don't see a lot of FBO guys doing that with the amount of time these guys had. They typically end up having to instruct a lot longer then flying freight or 135 charter bc they can't get an interview with a regional. Thats the way I see it..

Chad

 

[Badger]

fastracking.

I guess it'd be nice if people moving into the regionals were regarded for experience and quality. It's not your fault but it's really sad to see them selling the seats away. Paying some guy 19K/yr after he sunk 60K into a "program" or 8K into a "CRM" course. I guess it's a reality of the industry.

The regionals also know that those that paid that kind of cash are not the types that will bicker about being paid squat the rest of their careers (which may very well end at the regionals).

Good luck in whatever you choose. Just watch your back the whole way.

PS. And who told you you'd be at an FBO a long time? (these schools with the "connection$" ?). Most I know that decided to goto a regional spent 1 yr instructing and 1 yr with charter or something of the like. It's more now no doubt but it takes at least that to become a respectable pilot and not just be a liability up front. Like I said before, you're missing all the fun without flying boxes or even instructing. Flying the RJ between city pairs living in a rathole with 10 others in a slum apt. for 19K/yr...is that success?

 

[jergar999]

I went to ATP. Like any other school, your instructor will be the single most important factor in your success and in enjoying the experience (besides yourself). I had a great one, was very lucky in that respect. The reason I chose ATP was simple, I was ready to fly. FBOs do a great job at an often better price, but quite simply ATP will get you done in time, mostly in a twin. No FBO I have found will do this. It took my over a year to do my private at my local FBO with weather delays, maintenance issues, scheduling and other miscellaneous problems. It took ATP 3 months to do everything else. I was sure of what I wanted to do beyond a shadow of a doubt, I had studied everything I could, bottom line is I was motivated, and it made ATP a great experience. They wanted me in the plane as much as I wanted to be in it, which was a huge contrast to what I was used to FBO flying. You do some sim time, which doesn't really count for anything, but it can be a great learning tool. All in all, I got done, got a job, and have a lower loan payment than if I had spent many months or even years somewhere else. As for experience, flying a Seminole from Sacramento, CA to Jacksonville, FL then around Florida, to Phoenix, and tons of other places is great experience. More than I think you can learn practicing profiles in the local pattern many times in a row. With the schedule you are on at ATP, you get used to having limited time to do everything, it forces you to figure things out and make decisions and put it all into practice. They dispatch you from place to place across the country, all different places with different approaches, airports, and challenges. I really enjoyed every minute of it, and came out of the program ready to face what came. The other nice thing is that you meet a lot of people doing their ATP. Invite some of them to ride backseat when you're flying, help them with explaining the aircraft to prepare them for their checkride - in other words, network! All in all I would recommend ATP if you think you are ready to really do it. Put some effort into it, and you will get everything done within the specified time, at the specified rate. If I was promised something, I got it.

 

[Badger]

I'll have to 2nd ATP.

if you're going for the big school/speed aspect. I'll have to agree that ATP is a good choice. I know many people that have picked up a rating or two over there (ME, MEI, ATP mostly), all were very satisfied with the program. It's a great place to make connections too as many ATP'ers are out there before you that will help if you give them the chance. It sounds like they go out of there way to give you true experience rather than avoid risk to protect their insurance policy.

good luck, let us know.

 

[uscpilot]

For those of you contemplating getting an aviation degree I must ask: Why?
If you find it interesting then great, do it.
If you think you need it to get hired then someone is blowing smoke up your a$$. Look at the requirements for pilots out there. You will be hard pressed to find any that require or even prefer an aviation degree. The only one that comes to mind is ACA. I seem to remember looking at their job site a while back and they had reduced time requirements if you have an aviation degree. In aviation the only degree that they care about is the one you have, be it history, engineering, or aviation. So long as it is at least four years, they DO NOT CARE.
With reguards to Pan Am or ATP, you are nuts to spend more money and get less multi time. The people conduciting the interviews will be looking at your total and multi time, and will care less where you did your inital training (unless its military). You will become a proficient pilot as a CFI, no matter if you trained at an FBO or at one of the "grab your ankles" academies.
As far as distance learing, go watch Animal House, or Road Trip and tell me you want to miss out on that lifestyle.
If I could do it over again, I would have gone to ATP or Ari Ben, banged it out over a summer, and then instructed while in college. I imagine that the "Im a pilot" pick up line works better in college. After all most of your competition works at Starbucks, or maybe a bookstore, assuming that they even have a job.
Good Luck at Pan Am, dont drop the soap.

 

[ChadCRJ]

ATP vs. Panam

With reguards to Pan Am or ATP, you are nuts to spend more money and get less multi time.

I feel that the knowledge aspect of flying is just as important as the flying part. Going to ATP yes is a lot cheaper.. But I've heard a lot of negatives from people I have talked to lately an yes, even former students. Yea you get a lot of multi an all that good stuff... but for real. Do you think you'll get the same education in 90 days... compared to what you would get attending Panam, FSI, or DCA? I doubt it.

Also, the only way your going to end up with more multi is if you actually get hired on by ATP to instruct. An from talking to people there, it doesn't seem to be a lot of that going on. I guess thats due to the program an the stat of the industry. I've been told 50 students or so throughout the U.S. are currently in the career pilot program at a time. The course is only 90 days... so basically.. theres 200 students take or give some... that complete the course each year. With instructors having to instruct for a year or so to build time I can see why a lot of students wouldn't be getting picked up there. There is just no openings...

Wheres compared to Panam, I was told by a former instructor that as long as you complete the course and don't have any black marks.. you'll get picked up. Yea, I can see it might be slow for you at first but atleast you have a job that within time will pick up with more and more students.

Just how I see things..

 

[uscpilot]

This is not intended as slam on guys with low time. But it seems, with few exceptions, that most of the people that support the flight academies on this forum are low time, and conciquently (in my opinion) uniformed. I realize how easy it is to get tricked into handing over an insane amount of cash for all your initial ratings. All these academies have very slick marketing departments, they prey on the uninformed. The websites are very professional with pictures of students preflighting 172's while wearing pilot uniforms. Their sales staff will denigrate other schools or other training routes (FBO's). You may not believe me, but 2-3 years and 35000 dollars (or in current dollars 50 to 60 thousand) later and you will.
Look if you take the 50 to 60 thousand dollar route you will take a check ride with the FAA for your initial CFI. Another student who spent half what you spent on training will take and pass the same check ride. What did the extra 20000 get you? Oh yeah airconditioning, and a garmen 430, money well spent.
The best advice anyone can give (I know everything ) is to take a friend, or family member who is an experienced pilot and ask them to go the flight school with you. If they sign off on the 50000 dollar school then they are not your friend . Just kidding. But try to get their honest opinion of both the expensive and less expensive routes. If you do not have this luxury then educate your self as best you can with the FAR's and with what both schools have to offer so that you can ask the questions that will help you the most.
Good Luck All

 

[ChadCRJ]

USCpilot,

I see what your saying.. but it kinda relates back to what I said earlier. I want to beable to land a CFI job after I get done with the academy. And from talking to former Panam CFI's... they are getting a lot more multi time and around 80 hours a month with pretty good pay(As if there is a such thing for a CFI). Something you just don't see a lot of at FBO's.

The best advice anyone can give (I know everything ) is to take a friend, or family member who is an experienced pilot and ask them to go the flight school with you.

Funny you say that... I currently have two friends that fly for regionals. One of them recommend Panam and thought very differently about ATP. His exact words, "Your goal is to make it to an airline... not to complete your training in 90 days." He is a very close friend an has been sucessful- 3rd year at Comair and was hired on at 20.