What would you do (FARs)

[ackattacker]

That's happened to me a lot. Here's what I do: get out of the plane, shake the wingtip. Then move inboard and pound your fist on the fuel tank. Watch the needle go back to where it should be about 90 percent of the time. We have a pile of bad sending units from the new breed of skyhawks in a box, some are unfixable in this way, some are. It is definately a flaw in the design, and a huge hassle.

True story. Student is on checkride with a DE. Come out to airplane (172), one of the fuel guages reads zero. Write it up. Mechanic comes out, drains a small quantity of fuel from the wing and gives it a good shake. Fuel guage starts working. Mech signs of the discrepency.

DE reports the mechanic to the FSDO... 30 day suspension. Feds say "show me that repair/diagnostic technique in the manual". Mechanic looses appeal.

 

[check6]

Great Job!

. . .but I refused to take the . . .

I was laughing at your situation, because me and a few other instructors(this past summer) decided not to fly a certain 172 because we had all complained about an oil temperature guage that always reached the bottom of the red, top o the green. The DO of Mx said that it's probably an inaccurate guage. B/c of that statement, we were convinced it would remain broken. He was not too happy with us boycotting the plane for a whole summer. I had a good time with it though.

I still question why they couldn't have at least opened 'er up and at least looked at it. As it turns out, they are looking to sell the thing anyways. I guess priorities around my job lay with the 135 operations. . . .

 

[Fly_Chick]

but I did it to set an example for my student, and stay within the law.

Oh, how we are forever trying to set good examples and not bust primacy!!!

Airway, good decision on your part since you will be the one in the plane. While reading this post, I thought of a training approach that I often use assuming faulty gauges or electrical system failure.

The fuel gauges, even when working correctly, can often be hard to read accurately. Cover the gauges while flying, and have your student tell you how much fuel is left.

In aircraft with electrical fuel indicators, assume an electrical failure. In the older 172's (1957, 1958) with mechanical gauges, those needles swing then entire time between half a tank (i.e. if it is half full, the needles will swing between 3/4s and 1/4).

Knowing how much fuel is left, then having the student check the fuel amount on the next stop is a good cross-country exercise and a good confidence builder for them - assuming they did the cross-country planning, fuel burn based on winds, and proper deduced reckoning in the plane correctly.

This is also a good exercise to see if they really are scanning the fuel gauges (often taken for granted). Let's say the fuel cap was never replaced correctly. One tank will definately be reduced before the other tank. DId they notice?

 

[erj-145mech]

Boy, do they get mad though!

Nobody has ever died from a case of the red ass.

 

[CAP10B]

That's happened to me a lot. Here's what I do: get out of the plane, shake the wingtip. Then move inboard and pound your fist on the fuel tank. Watch the needle go back to where it should be about 90 percent of the time. We have a pile of bad sending units from the new breed of skyhawks in a box, some are unfixable in this way, some are. It is definately a flaw in the design, and a huge hassle.

I have to agree with Gutenberg. It's a common 172 problem and a simple fix.

The other 10% of the time, call MX.

 

[Airway]

Thanks for the feedback, folks. I don't know if it's been fixed yet as I didn't get to fly this weekend, but the plane was booked all weekend. AFAIK, nothing was fixed.

We'll see what happens I guess. I won't take the plane up unless it's been fixed, though.

 

[172driver]

Oops, someone beat me to what I was going to say.

 

[Lead Sled]

The most accurate fuel gauge on just about any aircraft is the clock.

'Sled

 

[Dumbledore]

Read your own post for the answer

The FARs state that a fuel quantity indicator indicating the amount of fuel in "each tank" is required...

Uh huh. Go with that thought

...it doesn't say "an operating fuel gauge indicator"

Well no, it doesn't but re-read the passage above. The requirement that the fuel gauge be accurate is implied in the wording of the reg. It says that the gauge has to show the quantity of fuel in each tank. It DOES NOT say that the gauge has to show a quantity of fuel in each tank. It says THE quantity in each tank.

To perform as required the gauge has to be working. If the guage isn't showing the correct quantity of fuel in the tank then it's not legal. It's as simple as that. Toss all that other crap about empty tanks and dead gauges out the window - it's utter BS.

You did the right thing.

 

[100LL... Again!]

This is the crux of it - for this airplane, this kind of operation..... I can't recall for cezznas but you have to pull out the Wt & Bal / Equipment list and see if the gauges have an "R" beside it.

Required by the FARs. No need to check the manual in this case. There are only three ways to fly with an inop fuel gauge.

1) Illegally

2) With an MEL

3) With a ferry permit

 

[100LL... Again!]

Also, any inoperative REQUIRED equipment makes the airplane unairworthy, and thus illegal to fly unless there is relief under FAR 91.2?? or under the provisions of an MEL. I'm too lay to look up the FAR, but it is there.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Also, any inoperative REQUIRED equipment makes the airplane unairworthy, and thus illegal to fly unless there is relief under FAR 91.2?? or under the provisions of an MEL. I'm too lay to look up the FAR, but it is there.

91.213(d) for operations without a MEL.

 

[kc81900]

Me and a private student finished pre-flight and we got into the airplane to get it started and for a lesson, and on start, the fuel quantity indicator for the right tank failed. We had just had the tanks topped off, so we were definitely full and fine for our flight, but I refused to take the plane, which pissed off our mechanic. We just took another 172 (easy enough).

The FARs state that a fuel quantity indicator indicating the amount of fuel in "each tank" is required, however, if you want to be technical, it doesn't say "an operating fuel gauge indicator" (I don't buy that stuff). I refused to take the plane not because I couldn't safely fly (I knew we had full tanks, and we would go up for what, 1.4 hours), but I did it to set an example for my student, and stay within the law.

But, I'm asking basically out of curiosity, what would you do? I took shoot from the mechanic and I basically just sat there and nodded my head while he proceeded to be a jackass about it.

As far as I know, for VFR day, a fuel quantity indicator is required (unless I'm missing something).

Airway.

if you developed a fuel leak in that tank how would you know? you made a good decision.

 

[Hogan]

flight sans W&B on board

On the same vein... but switching gears... anyone been pressured to fly an a/c that didn't have W&B on board? CFI gave me a big speech about his time in the military and how they had "latitude" to get the job done. Said it was just a piece of paper. I thought not having it in board a training A/C meant the airplane was unairworthy in the eyes of the FAA.
thoughts? and no, I didn't do it.

 

[Lead Sled]

On the same vein... but switching gears... anyone been pressured to fly an a/c that didn't have W&B on board? CFI gave me a big speech about his time in the military and how they had "latitude" to get the job done. Said it was just a piece of paper. I thought not having it in board a training A/C meant the airplane was unairworthy in the eyes of the FAA.
thoughts? and no, I didn't do it.

You did well.

'Sled

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I know a pilot who recently flew out of a large metro area. At about 6,000', ATC told them to "Maintain 280 kts for spacing." They called back and were told the same thing, so they followed ATC instructions.

I talked to an ATC app/dep controller who said it is legal for us to fly over 250 <10K if requested by ATC, and then another pilot who said it's not.

I do realize that they both could be right, because the FAA does a very poor job of consistently interpreting their own regs throughout the system.

Opinions? I'd especially like to hear from controllers.

Cliff
YIP

 

[erj-145mech]

I don't think that ATC may direct you to deviate from a regulation. In the Houston area, there was an experiment for a while to delete speed restrictions, but that didn't come from Houston ATC, that came down from the FAA regional office.

 

[minitour]

I don't think that ATC may direct you to deviate from a regulation.

Yep...ATC isn't the administrator. Only the administrator can authorize the deviations for airspeed.

I know ATC can authorize certain deviations (flying in, through or over class C without Mode-C...that kinda thing), but you have to give them a pretty decent notice.

As for airspeed, I'm pretty sure the language says the administrator has to authorize the deviations....too tired to look it up though.

-mini

 

[Say Again Over]

anyone been pressured to fly an a/c that didn't have W&B on board? CFI gave me a big speech about his time in the military and how they had "latitude" to get the job done.

Never do anything you can't defend in a court of law.

"Maintain 280 kts for spacing."

ATC cannot allow you to deviate from the FAR's in this case, we sometimes get this request in LAX when we are past the US boundry, in this case it is legal.