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What will Republic do with their big C-Series CS300 Order?

General Lee

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No fighting boys

I see mainline United getting all those orders and options from Republic and converting them to -300 orders
80 new planes with 125 seats is a must for UAL
In return they will sign another 80 175 with Republic in 2016 after the scope required date.


Think about it

Thanks Nostradamus, that actually might work. But, if your theory does, it would support my opinion that none of the three legacies will allow planes over 76 seats at their Regionals. That was my point all along.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 

freightrash

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BB was cririticizing in his letter that SKW's E2 order was stupid, because of scope clause. So it will be interesting to see what he will do with this Cseries order. But I guarantee 100% he will sell those slots to other airlines. Or RAH's new subsidiary,,Republic Aircraft Leasing LLC will form soon.
 
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johnsonrod

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No fighting boys

I see mainline United getting all those orders and options from Republic and converting them to -300 orders
80 new planes with 125 seats is a must for UAL
In return they will sign another 80 175 with Republic in 2016 after the scope required date.


Think about it

Thanks Sniper. Finally a sensible response! I agree with your prediction. The CS300 could fit in well at both UAL and Delta down the line... Hope they finish testing as scheduled in 2015.
 

WSurf

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Thanks Sniper. Finally a sensible response! I agree with your prediction. The CS300 could fit in well at both UAL and Delta down the line... Hope they finish testing as scheduled in 2015.


Unless United gets the CS300 on the cheap why would you want a plane that is pretty much a Airbus 319? The C-Series is trying to muscle in on a market that already has Boeing and Airbus all up in it.

Good luck with that.
 

johnsonrod

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Unless United gets the CS300 on the cheap why would you want a plane that is pretty much a Airbus 319? The C-Series is trying to muscle in on a market that already has Boeing and Airbus all up in it.

Good luck with that.

Apples to oranges except for seating. The C-Series (especially the CS300) has much better CASM numbers and it has the range to easily fly Sarasota to Seattle with a full load on a summer day (I'd like to see AS add that route to Seattle!):

http://commercialaircraft.bombardier.com/en/cseries/Flexibility/Range-Capabilities.html

and

http://commercialaircraft.bombardier.com/en/cseries/Flexibility.html


At 120-140 seats, the CS300 incorporates new technology with much better fuel burn, and to my knowledge, nobody has ordered the A319NEO here in the States. Plus, Anderson at Delta has acknowledged that he is not a fan of the 737-700 (only 5-10 in the fleet total) - so, that aircraft would not work in terms of adding further 700 fleet numbers.

The E190 E2 might be a worthy competitor to the CS300 for UAL or Delta orders in that seat range, but the E190 E2 will also incorporate new technologies (including sidesticks) that could push a potential start date further out just like the C-Series. Ya never know....
 
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WSurf

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Well they better get more orders cause they are way in the black on this bird.
 

asayankee

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I believe you got your colors a bit mixed up there WSurf.....Being in the black is a GOOD thing. In the red you are losing money.
 

Jetjockey

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UAL scope allows additional 76/70 seat airplanes if Mainline adds to it's small narrowbody fleet. I predict Republic will use it's positions and orders to trade UAL it's spot on the CS100 production line for a large chunk of the additional 76 seaters allowed. Then United mainline will take a mix of CS100/300. Sort of a win win for all parties involved. Just my guess for what it's worth.
 

RT8VA

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These CEO's whether regional or major all play at the same clubs, don't expect SKY West management to make some play against Delta for it's employees at the cost of their airline because it wont happen. When Independence went out on it's own it was a different airline industry, one where there were many players and a lot to defend. Management at all companies work together much more than the fighting on this board by a bunch of people who make no decisions out side of the airplane.

Larry Kellner went out on to his own company and then hired the ex CEO of American Airlines and has also been named to Boeings board. Like your friends in college they will all stick together and make money for themselves that is just business.
 

General Lee

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These CEO's whether regional or major all play at the same clubs, don't expect SKY West management to make some play against Delta for it's employees at the cost of their airline because it wont happen. When Independence went out on it's own it was a different airline industry, one where there were many players and a lot to defend. Management at all companies work together much more than the fighting on this board by a bunch of people who make no decisions out side of the airplane.

Larry Kellner went out on to his own company and then hired the ex CEO of American Airlines and has also been named to Boeings board. Like your friends in college they will all stick together and make money for themselves that is just business.

Yeah, but scope clauses won't be broken, especially with higher profits out there (meaning fewer concessions). That leaves feeding Alaska Air (bad scope), or going independent. Going independent means a lot of extra start up costs that the prior Regional didn't have, like reservations, marketing, fuel procurement, etc. Then, they'll have to fight for marketshare, and trying to become a new entrant means fighting legacies, and maybe worse fighting LCCs.

Indy Air tried, didn't last long. Expressjet tried out of ONT, didn't last long. I know you think all of the CEOs are buddies, but when it comes to their own Xmas bonus or yearly stock options, they aren't thinking of the other guys. The Indy Air experiment showed how ruthless ALL of the airlines got against the new comer. And huge profits at the legacies means super duper low fares around any new entrant. The only successful entrant in the last 6-7 years was VA, and they had a lot of cash and there was a hole in transcon service at the time. Since then, JetBlue has added "Mint", and each legacy has added lie flat seats or new products. Then, add huge retirements coming up, and the legacies may pull pilots away from start ups too.

It's not a very good environment for start ups these days. The competition has a lot of extra cash to burn going after anyone new.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
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Twisted Mind

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GL,
I disagree scope will be given up. History shows it always is sold for contract improvements.
Also this is the best time for a start up. Airlines have tightened capacity. Fewer competitors to deal with. Large profits to attract investors. New "large RJ's" with lower CASMs. Some contract carriers developed marketing programs ect... During the short lived "at risk flying" rage. With consolidation in the contract carrier portion of the industry it will take considerably longer for a legacy like Delta to shift flying away from a large contractor.
 

General Lee

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GL,
I disagree scope will be given up. History shows it always is sold for contract improvements.
Also this is the best time for a start up. Airlines have tightened capacity. Fewer competitors to deal with. Large profits to attract investors. New "large RJ's" with lower CASMs. Some contract carriers developed marketing programs ect... During the short lived "at risk flying" rage. With consolidation in the contract carrier portion of the industry it will take considerably longer for a legacy like Delta to shift flying away from a large contractor.

History? The last 3 contracts at DL had no increase in seats for RJs at DL (since BK when it went from a max of 70 to 76 seats), and the APA just told Parker to shove it. UAL also has a limit of 76 seaters too. Why should mainline pilots allow scope changes when the airlines are now ultra profitable, especially with lower oil prices now? DL is up for a new contract and the pilots will probably get an extra 20% now thanks to profit sharing built into their contract (2 1/2 months extra pay total), and the APA has a "me too" clause with DL, bringing up their wages to DL's in 2016. There is NO reason to give any concessions at all.

And have you been to the C concourse at ATL lately? 717s everywhere, flying to places like EVV, SHV, DSM, XNA, GRR, MDT, MYR, etc. Those were all RJ only city pairs 5 years ago. Only half of them (44 now) have been delivered, and more are being looked at supposedly. (Blue1 in Finland has some they may be selling). The Legacies also haven't had any problem hiring pilots, versus the Regionals having problems filling classes. The legacies know this, and probably will continue to try to get mainline planes to replace as many larger RJs as possible on their routes, as those larger RJs replace 50 seaters as they go to the desert.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
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General Lee

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United Said to Mull Embraer, CSeries Jets in Fleet Revamp
By Julie Johnsson, Michael Sasso and Andrea Rothman
November 05, 2014 4:55 PM EST. Bloomberg


United Airlines (UAL) is in talks with Embraer SA (EMBR3) and Bombardier Inc. (BBD/B) to buy new narrow-body planes amid a fleet makeover to reduce its reliance on unprofitable regional jets, people familiar with the matter said.

The discussions involve the largest models in Embraer's updated E-Jets family and Bombardier's smallest CSeries, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the details are private. An order isn't imminent, the people said.

An Embraer or Bombardier purchase would be a departure for Chicago-based United, whose pilots only fly Boeing Co. (BA) and Airbus Group NV (AIR) aircraft on its main jet routes. The jets under consideration would fill a gap between United's narrow-bodies, most of which seat more than 150 people, and commuter planes carrying a maximum of 76 passengers.

Choosing one of the new planemakers also would let United place a separate order at the Express regional unit to replace its inefficient 50-seaters. United's pilot contract lets it take more commuter aircraft, starting in 2016, as long as larger Embraer or Bombardier jets are added to the main fleet.

For regional-jet pioneers Embraer and Bombardier, a deal with United would boost their quest to weaken Boeing and Airbus's grip on sales of bigger aircraft to major U.S. airlines. Embraer's two largest E2 planes will have about 140 seats, while the CS100 from Montreal-based Bombardier will carry 108 to 125 people.

Stock Advance
Bombardier rallied on the news and gained 1.6 percent to C$3.80 at the close in Toronto. Embraer rose 0.4 percent to 24.10 reais in Sao Paulo, while United slid 2 percent to $54.11.

United isn't giving details on its fleet strategy, which includes assessing new and used planes, said Megan McCarthy, a spokeswoman for parent United Continental Holdings Inc.

"We're talking to all the manufacturers," McCarthy said in a telephone interview.

Chief Financial Officer John Rainey said Oct. 23 that United is shopping for used models from Embraer, Airbus and Boeing to take the place of the 50-seat jets being parked. United bought its first secondhand planes, two Boeing 737-700s, last quarter.

"We don't necessarily want to go out and place a brand-new aircraft order that creates several billion dollars more" of capital expenditures, Rainey said during a conference call to discuss third-quarter earnings.

Company Responses
Spokesmen for Airbus, Boeing and Sao Jose dos Campos, Brazil-based Embraer declined to comment on talks with United. Marianella de la Barrera, a Bombardier spokeswoman, said "United is obviously an airline that we?re very interested in showing the CSeries to" while declining to give details.

While Embraer's E190-E2 and E195-E2 are re-engined updates of existing models, Bombardier's CSeries is an all-new aircraft. The planemaker has struggled to find buyers for the CSeries, whose commercial debut is now set for 2015?s second half after missing a planned 2013 target.

The E2s, which won't start entering service until later this decade, list for as much as $62.4 million. The CS100's catalog price is $63 million. Airlines typically get discounts.

United?s results have been hurt by its dependence on 50-seat jets flown under contract by regional affiliates. Even with fuel prices retreating this year, a gallon of jet kerosene still costs about 50 percent more than a decade ago, eroding the economics that once made the small planes attractive.

"We are too reliant on the 50-seat RJ,"Rainey told analysts last month.

Pilot Contract
United can start adding bigger regional jets with 76 seats in 2016, on condition that it takes Embraer or Bombardier planes in the 100-seats-and-up category, according to the airline's pilot contract.

That agreement set a formula that lets United buy four 76-seaters -- such as Embraer E-175s -- for every five larger mainline planes it acquires, up to a total of 223 regional aircraft. United's Express unit, which subcontracts flying to commuter carriers, can operate jets that seat as many as 76 passengers.

United has been replacing its 50-seaters with newer, more-efficient E-175s. McCarthy, the spokeswoman, said recent orders have pushed United's tally to 153 of those planes, the maximum number allowed under the pilot contract.

Each time United replaces a 50-seat jet with an E-175, the airline generates "over $1 million of annual improved profitability," Chief Revenue Officer Jim Compton said on the earnings call.

To contact the reporters on this story: Julie Johnsson in Chicago

To contact the editors responsible for this story: Ed Dufner




Bye Bye---General Lee
 
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General Lee

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"United's results have been hurt by its dependence on 50-seat jets flown under contract by regional affiliates. Even with fuel prices retreating this year, a gallon of jet kerosene still costs about 50 percent more than a decade ago, eroding the economics that once made the small planes attractive.

"We are too reliant on the 50-seat RJ,"Rainey told analysts last month."



This is an important fact. Hopefully this will lead to even more UAL hiring. DL will be hiring 165 this month, 5 Monday classes with 33 people in each. Good luck to everyone.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 

johnsonrod

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United Said to Mull Embraer, CSeries Jets in Fleet Revamp
By Julie Johnsson, Michael Sasso and Andrea Rothman
November 05, 2014 4:55 PM EST. Bloomberg


United Airlines (UAL) is in talks with Embraer SA (EMBR3) and Bombardier Inc. (BBD/B) to buy new narrow-body planes amid a fleet makeover to reduce its reliance on unprofitable regional jets, people familiar with the matter said.

The discussions involve the largest models in Embraer's updated E-Jets family and Bombardier's smallest CSeries, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the details are private. An order isn't imminent, the people said.

An Embraer or Bombardier purchase would be a departure for Chicago-based United, whose pilots only fly Boeing Co. (BA) and Airbus Group NV (AIR) aircraft on its main jet routes. The jets under consideration would fill a gap between United's narrow-bodies, most of which seat more than 150 people, and commuter planes carrying a maximum of 76 passengers.

Choosing one of the new planemakers also would let United place a separate order at the Express regional unit to replace its inefficient 50-seaters. United's pilot contract lets it take more commuter aircraft, starting in 2016, as long as larger Embraer or Bombardier jets are added to the main fleet.

For regional-jet pioneers Embraer and Bombardier, a deal with United would boost their quest to weaken Boeing and Airbus's grip on sales of bigger aircraft to major U.S. airlines. Embraer's two largest E2 planes will have about 140 seats, while the CS100 from Montreal-based Bombardier will carry 108 to 125 people.

Stock Advance
Bombardier rallied on the news and gained 1.6 percent to C$3.80 at the close in Toronto. Embraer rose 0.4 percent to 24.10 reais in Sao Paulo, while United slid 2 percent to $54.11.

United isn't giving details on its fleet strategy, which includes assessing new and used planes, said Megan McCarthy, a spokeswoman for parent United Continental Holdings Inc.

"We're talking to all the manufacturers," McCarthy said in a telephone interview.

Chief Financial Officer John Rainey said Oct. 23 that United is shopping for used models from Embraer, Airbus and Boeing to take the place of the 50-seat jets being parked. United bought its first secondhand planes, two Boeing 737-700s, last quarter.

"We don't necessarily want to go out and place a brand-new aircraft order that creates several billion dollars more" of capital expenditures, Rainey said during a conference call to discuss third-quarter earnings.

Company Responses
Spokesmen for Airbus, Boeing and Sao Jose dos Campos, Brazil-based Embraer declined to comment on talks with United. Marianella de la Barrera, a Bombardier spokeswoman, said "United is obviously an airline that we?re very interested in showing the CSeries to" while declining to give details.

While Embraer's E190-E2 and E195-E2 are re-engined updates of existing models, Bombardier's CSeries is an all-new aircraft. The planemaker has struggled to find buyers for the CSeries, whose commercial debut is now set for 2015?s second half after missing a planned 2013 target.

The E2s, which won't start entering service until later this decade, list for as much as $62.4 million. The CS100's catalog price is $63 million. Airlines typically get discounts.

United?s results have been hurt by its dependence on 50-seat jets flown under contract by regional affiliates. Even with fuel prices retreating this year, a gallon of jet kerosene still costs about 50 percent more than a decade ago, eroding the economics that once made the small planes attractive.

"We are too reliant on the 50-seat RJ,"Rainey told analysts last month.

Pilot Contract
United can start adding bigger regional jets with 76 seats in 2016, on condition that it takes Embraer or Bombardier planes in the 100-seats-and-up category, according to the airline's pilot contract.

That agreement set a formula that lets United buy four 76-seaters -- such as Embraer E-175s -- for every five larger mainline planes it acquires, up to a total of 223 regional aircraft. United's Express unit, which subcontracts flying to commuter carriers, can operate jets that seat as many as 76 passengers.

United has been replacing its 50-seaters with newer, more-efficient E-175s. McCarthy, the spokeswoman, said recent orders have pushed United's tally to 153 of those planes, the maximum number allowed under the pilot contract.

Each time United replaces a 50-seat jet with an E-175, the airline generates "over $1 million of annual improved profitability," Chief Revenue Officer Jim Compton said on the earnings call.

To contact the reporters on this story: Julie Johnsson in Chicago

To contact the editors responsible for this story: Ed Dufner




Bye Bye---General Lee


In the article, are they confusing the CS100 and the CS300? The CS300 is the competitor to the E190-E2 and not the smaller CS100.
 

jonjuan

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"We are too reliant on the 50-seat RJ,"Rainey told analysts last month."



Bye Bye---General Lee

so, let's give the regionals more financially viable, new 76 seaters. Hey lee, if you say no concessions, why give them the ability to ADD more fuel efficient planes? :laugh:
 
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