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What up at Republic/Frontier???

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airlinepilot

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2002
Posts
481
Heard management wanted them to take a 20% cut in pay and in turn would give them 51% of the company in stock? Is this true? What's going on??
 
Not 51%. More like "equity" in the company in return for frozen wages and no 401k contribution.

F9 will be sold off as soon as Beford can find a buyer.

Sucks. I know it's woulda coulda shoulda but they should have been SWAPA pilots.

Gup
 
Ask the UAL guys how the ESOP worked out for them......
PBR
 
Frontier will not be sold off entirely.
Wages are not frozen.
The 401k match is not going away.

Bedford wants the branded operation, and he will not relinquish the airline after this restructuring effort is complete unless he is the CEO of the new company. Bedford doesn't want a "buyer", he wants an investor to help carry this for a short period of time.

FAPA's equity is not an ESOP plan. If it doesn't work we will not lose anything more than we would have without the conversion. If it does work it will be a model that other labor groups will use if they find themselves in a simliar position.

I have to be honest, the future of Frontier and Frontier pilots is actually brighter today than it has been for a long time. The ramifications of the restructuring plan are enormous. There may be some light at the end of the tunnel.
 
It's possible that light is a train heading right for ya, I do hope it works for you guys though.
 
20% pay cut? Are they serious? That places F9 rates behind US on the same equipment and that's a bankruptcy contract from many years ago. You couldn't do any worse in bankruptcy.

If Bedford is having issues running the company at the current rates then that is squarely a management problem. Don't lower this bar, we saw how well it has worked for US, UA, AA, NW, DL and they ALL have better pay rates than what Bedford is proposing. Some even have better rates before the pay cut.

The 401k match is already pitiful to begin with so why would he need more cuts?

Just remember that Bedford can't lie to wall street because it is a crime and he personally can go to jail, but that doesn't apply to lying to the employees..
 
blott said:
It's possible that light is a train heading right for ya, I do hope it works for you guys though.
Click to expand...

Anything is possible in aviation.

Airbus, GECAS, RJET, and FAPA all share the same interest.

This restructuring isn't about survival, it is about taking this operation to the next step. It might not work, but I like our chances considering the players that are involved.
 
StaySeated said:
Frontier will not be sold off entirely.
Wages are not frozen.
The 401k match is not going away.

Bedford wants the branded operation, and he will not relinquish the airline after this restructuring effort is complete unless he is the CEO of the new company. Bedford doesn't want a "buyer", he wants an investor to help carry this for a short period of time.

FAPA's equity is not an ESOP plan. If it doesn't work we will not lose anything more than we would have without the conversion. If it does work it will be a model that other labor groups will use if they find themselves in a simliar position.

I have to be honest, the future of Frontier and Frontier pilots is actually brighter today than it has been for a long time. The ramifications of the restructuring plan are enormous. There may be some light at the end of the tunnel.
Click to expand...

Enjoy your future of working for less and less money every quarter until you're out of a job. Anyone that doesn't work at Frontier can see that you guys are being played. You are jaded by the fact that you don't want to lose your job.
 
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StaySeated said:
Frontier will not be sold off entirely.
Wages are not frozen.
The 401k match is not going away.

Bedford wants the branded operation, and he will not relinquish the airline after this restructuring effort is complete unless he is the CEO of the new company. Bedford doesn't want a "buyer", he wants an investor to help carry this for a short period of time.

FAPA's equity is not an ESOP plan. If it doesn't work we will not lose anything more than we would have without the conversion. If it does work it will be a model that other labor groups will use if they find themselves in a simliar position.

I have to be honest, the future of Frontier and Frontier pilots is actually brighter today than it has been for a long time. The ramifications of the restructuring plan are enormous. There may be some light at the end of the tunnel.
Click to expand...

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/getting-help-locate-services/index.shtml

:beer:
 
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scoreboardII said:
So, what is the next step? The operation is not working as advertised.
Click to expand...

So working for less than BK wages of 6 years ago is the answer? You guys are being played like a fiddle. By himself Bedford can contribute over $1 million to the pot, but he won't. While you all fight over peanuts he is laughing all of the way to the bank with a pension worth more than your salary. He won't endure the "difficult decisions".

If this was truly life or death for the airline then he won't be taking a salary.
 
StaySeated said:
I have to be honest, the future of Frontier and Frontier pilots is actually brighter today than it has been for a long time. The ramifications of the restructuring plan are enormous. There may be some light at the end of the tunnel.
Click to expand...

Dude. Seriously? You really need to take off the rose colored glasses. I wonder if you've gone into self preservation mode? I really have to wonder how those senior FAPA captains that thumbed their noses at SWAPA and sunk the deal are faring with the junior pilots who are now realizing that their only real hope of a decent career was flushed by a senior few who couldn't bear wearing three stripes again. Wow. SWA or Ucal for that matter will not show any mercy.
 
Redtailer said:
So working for less than BK wages of 6 years ago is the answer? You guys are being played like a fiddle. By himself Bedford can contribute over $1 million to the pot, but he won't. While you all fight over peanuts he is laughing all of the way to the bank with a pension worth more than your salary. He won't endure the "difficult decisions".

If this was truly life or death for the airline then he won't be taking a salary.
Click to expand...

There were no paycuts involved in this deal. In fact, all furloughees had their longevity restored and experienced a $14 an hour raise.

This wasn't life or death for republic holdings, this was life or death for one certificate.
 
XR650R said:
Dude. Seriously? You really need to take off the rose colored glasses. I wonder if you've gone into self preservation mode? I really have to wonder how those senior FAPA captains that thumbed their noses at SWAPA and sunk the deal are faring with the junior pilots who are now realizing that their only real hope of a decent career was flushed by a senior few who couldn't bear wearing three stripes again. Wow. SWA or Ucal for that matter will not show any mercy.
Click to expand...

For the 1,000,001 time. No one snubbed any noses. There were plenty of FO's involved in the process (one lives in MDW, I am sure he would have hated being at the bottom of SWA's list, earning SWA pay, and living in domicile) and the Captains involved are relatively junior. No one every said "no", the "negotiation" ended after a few hours and was set to begin again in Dallas but the auction ended before the parties met again. This story has taken on a life of its own and 95% of what is out there is simply not true.
 
This is not the truth.

One of the SWAPA negotiators got on here a while back and described what happened. The FAPA negotiators would not return calls or answer the phone during the last day leading up to the auction.

FAPA signed a LOA with Bryan Bedford of Republic and had already made their choice, there was no actual negotiation with SWAPA.

I feel for the Frontier guys, but like Steve Jobs, you all seem to be living in a reality distortion field. Gary Kelly said that he wouldn't purchase Frontier absent a seniority agreement, and he didn't purchase Frontier when there was no seniority agreement.

Would he have outbid Bedford had an agreement been reached? Nobody knows, but we do know that he would not have bought Frontier--regardless of price--without a seniority agreement between FAPA and SWAPA.

Personally, I think you guys are/were insane, but then again, we apparently have different priorities about what a desirable career in aviation looks like.

You guys got a water-cannon salute for fending off Southwest Airlines. Wow. What's a SWAPA pilot career worth? $4m? What's a Frontier career worth? $1.5m? Each of you spent $2.5 million dollars to save the animals. That's pretty expensive, I hope Bedford makes it up to you.
 
Bedford is buying time to off load F9. We all know DEN cannot support 3 large carriers so somethings going to give. Bedford needs to take his bucket and shovel and leave the sandbox for nap time. Thank god fuel went to $93.00 this week to give you a bit of breathing room.

As of today's mrkt close:
UAL 7.9B
LUV 8.18B
RJET 222.17M
How long can BB hang on?
 
StaySeated said:
There were no paycuts involved in this deal. In fact, all furloughees had their longevity restored and experienced a $14 an hour raise.

This wasn't life or death for republic holdings, this was life or death for one certificate.
Click to expand...

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't talking about Republic furloughs or raises.. I was referring to the fact that what Bedford is proposing to the Frontier pilots a pay rate that is BELOW the bankruptcy contract of USAirways which is going on 7 years old. The current rates are barely on par with peers and the 401k is no where in the ballpark.

Let's compare rates with F9's biggest competition:

F9 Capt: $156 FO: $94
F9 Capt: $126 FO: $76 (Proposed Rate)
UA Capt: $137 FO: $94
SW Capt: $210 FO: $147
DL Capt: $167 FO: $115
US Capt: $125 FO: $85 (2004 BK rate)

If F9 is not competitive it is not due to pilot wages. So why take it in the shorts when your wages are not the problem?
 
Redtailer:

I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but it's wrong with regard to Frontier. Our current rates can be found in Appendix 1 of Letter of Agreement 21 on the the 3/2/2011 table. 14 year rate for CA is $149 and FO is $89.40.

We were due to receive a raise on 7/1/2011 and 1/1/2012. These scheduled future raises will not happen. In addition, everyone will skip their next yearly longevity raise.

Not disagreeing with the general tone of your post, believe me. I've never seen paycuts save an airline.
 
OpenClimb said:
Redtailer:

I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but it's wrong with regard to Frontier. Our current rates can be found in Appendix 1 of Letter of Agreement 21 on the the 3/2/2011 table. 14 year rate for CA is $149 and FO is $89.40.

We were due to receive a raise on 7/1/2011 and 1/1/2012. These scheduled future raises will not happen. In addition, everyone will skip their next yearly longevity raise.

Not disagreeing with the general tone of your post, believe me. I've never seen paycuts save an airline.
Click to expand...

Got those numbers from here: http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/frontier.html

Guess they were off, but the sad part is that they are worse than what I posted.

So after the 20% paycut that puts the F9 pilots at $119 and $71. That is just embarrassingly low. Why even work at an airline at those rates?
 
radarlove said:
This is not the truth.

One of the SWAPA negotiators got on here a while back and described what happened. The FAPA negotiators would not return calls or answer the phone during the last day leading up to the auction.

FAPA signed a LOA with Bryan Bedford of Republic and had already made their choice, there was no actual negotiation with SWAPA.

I feel for the Frontier guys, but like Steve Jobs, you all seem to be living in a reality distortion field. Gary Kelly said that he wouldn't purchase Frontier absent a seniority agreement, and he didn't purchase Frontier when there was no seniority agreement.

Would he have outbid Bedford had an agreement been reached? Nobody knows, but we do know that he would not have bought Frontier--regardless of price--without a seniority agreement between FAPA and SWAPA.

Personally, I think you guys are/were insane, but then again, we apparently have different priorities about what a desirable career in aviation looks like.

You guys got a water-cannon salute for fending off Southwest Airlines. Wow. What's a SWAPA pilot career worth? $4m? What's a Frontier career worth? $1.5m? Each of you spent $2.5 million dollars to save the animals. That's pretty expensive, I hope Bedford makes it up to you.
Click to expand...

Sorry, here is the truth. Whomever told you that SWAPA tried to contact FAPA is either lying or misinformed.

This email was sent to the FAPA president at 11:32 AM MDT, on August 13.

From: win(redacted remainder of email address)

Date: August 13, 2009 11:32:31 AM MDT

To: John (redacted remainder of email address)

Cc: Carl (redacted), Merger Acquisition

Subject: talks


John,

I know nothing has transpired yet with regard to the SWA bid. I certainly don't think we need to have face time in the next few days if things are just status quo, but we were wondering what your thoughts were on our next talks.

Tom
M&A

​
You can note that there is no reference to any unanswered phone calls.

You can also see that Tom referred to "face time" over the next few days. This is because FAPA and SWAPA were planning on meeting over the weekend. This is also something I have stated numerous times on this board.

This was the extent of the communication between FAPA and SWAPA on the day that many SWA pilots are claiming that "numerous" phone calls went unanswered. The SWA bid was pulled shortly after this email was sent and the rest is history.

The fact that so many of you guys seem to gain enjoyment in rubbing our noses in something that didn't happen is rather amazing and disgusting at the same time.

I could care less anymore which is why I decided to post the email that was forwarded to me.
 
Redtailer said:
Got those numbers from here: http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/frontier.html

Guess they were off, but the sad part is that they are worse than what I posted.

So after the 20% paycut that puts the F9 pilots at $119 and $71. That is just embarrassingly low. Why even work at an airline at those rates?
Click to expand...

You quoted my post above that states there is NO PAYCUT, yet you keep on claiming that we approved a 20% paycut.

Read slowly....LOA 67 does not reduce hourly pay rates.

There is no 20% paycut. We deferred two raises that were supposed to occur in July and January. Those raises will still happen, and the date depends on a number of different moving pieces.

Once again. These "concessions" include the deferment of raises, not a cut in pay.
 
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Redtailer...

Know won iz takeing a 20 purrcent pay kut.

But keep posting, I do come here for entertainment purposes.
 
StaySeated said:
You quoted my post above that states there is NO PAYCUT, yet you keep on claiming that we approved a 20% paycut.

Read slowly....LOA 67 does not reduce hourly pay rates.

There is no 20% paycut. We deferred two raises that were supposed to occur in July and January. Those raises will still happen, and the date depends on a number of different moving pieces.

Once again. These "concessions" include the deferment of raises, not a cut in pay.
Click to expand...

Just curious...have you ever taken a course in basic economics? (And passed?)
 
StaySeated said:
There is no 20% paycut. We deferred two raises that were supposed to occur in July and January.
Click to expand...

How nice of you folks to take concessions to an all new level! No longer does Mgmt need paycuts, the pilots just stop getting raises.. Even better! Way to go!!
 
Does this pay freeze mean that all the 'new-hire' F9 F/Os that resigned their RAH seniority and crossed over will be stuck at $37/hr for the next two years?
 
Redtailer:

I'm sorry I wasn't very clear in my previous post. The rates I quoted are the rates we have now and will continue to have (assuming we stay in business) for a minimum of 1 year. As the other guy pointed out, we didn't take an X-percent pay cut OFF of those rates. We're just not getting a raise in July, 2011, Jan, 2012 and will skip one year of longevity raise.

Yes, believe me, I'm well aware that these are concessions. All told, 1 year from now, the pay, vacation and sick time givebacks will reduce my annual income by about $14,000 from where it would have been if we had received the pay increases as originally scheduled. Right now, today, my paycheck won't change a bit, but my sick and vacation accrual will be reduced by .17 days per month and .25 days per month, respectively (i.e., I'm giving up 2 sick days per year and 3 vacation days per year).

Understand that I'm not trying to be argumentative and I'm not trying to gloss over the fact that we gave concessions for dubious (at best) reasons. There's just so much mis-information out there that I wanted to try and clear this up before the misconception takes on a life of its own.
 
I guess it's easy to be smug about "holding the bar", when you haven't been ate up and crapped out - not wondering if your company will be around in a year - in especially harsh economic times.

Godspeed F9 guys (and gals)
 

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