What up at Republic/Frontier???

[Flycatcher99]

This is not the truth.

One of the SWAPA negotiators got on here a while back and described what happened. The FAPA negotiators would not return calls or answer the phone during the last day leading up to the auction.

FAPA signed a LOA with Bryan Bedford of Republic and had already made their choice, there was no actual negotiation with SWAPA.

I feel for the Frontier guys, but like Steve Jobs, you all seem to be living in a reality distortion field. Gary Kelly said that he wouldn't purchase Frontier absent a seniority agreement, and he didn't purchase Frontier when there was no seniority agreement.

Would he have outbid Bedford had an agreement been reached? Nobody knows, but we do know that he would not have bought Frontier--regardless of price--without a seniority agreement between FAPA and SWAPA.

Personally, I think you guys are/were insane, but then again, we apparently have different priorities about what a desirable career in aviation looks like.

You guys got a water-cannon salute for fending off Southwest Airlines. Wow. What's a SWAPA pilot career worth? $4m? What's a Frontier career worth? $1.5m? Each of you spent $2.5 million dollars to save the animals. That's pretty expensive, I hope Bedford makes it up to you.

I flew with a SWA BOD member, and he related to me the turns of events. In short, the FAPA negotiators were very hard to keep in contact with, and were very obstinate. After the initial offer from swapa, the only response from FAPA was for a merged list that included indefinite fenced protections in den, furlough pay (!), and other ridiculous demands.

I wish absolutely no ill will toward F9 folks, and in fact have several good friends there. But their union powers absolutely sold them down the river.

 

[arjayeffo]

yet again...

I flew with a SWA BOD member, and he related to me the turns of events. In short, the FAPA negotiators were very hard to keep in contact with, and were very obstinate. After the initial offer from swapa, the only response from FAPA was for a merged list that included indefinite fenced protections in den, furlough pay (!), and other ridiculous demands.

I wish absolutely no ill will toward F9 folks, and in fact have several good friends there. But their union powers absolutely sold them down the river.

Next time you fly with him, ask him what their counter offer to FAPA's initial ask was.


Or I can save you the time: It was the exact same as their initial offer - staple. And then again, staple. And after that, staple.


If a telemarketer kept calling your house to try to sell you the same piece of crap, that you didn't want, over and over, wouldn't you be excused for not rushing back to the phone every single time to hear the pitch again?

Staple was all they ever offered, and indeed all they ever had the power to offer in their 'well-designed' timeframe to accomplish the integration. Yet FAPA was the one being obstinate?? Dictionary.com defines the word as: "characterized by inflexible persistence or an unyielding attitude". Again, if it was truly 'negotiations' taking place, then what was SWAPA's second offer? When I asked this question months ago, the other guy couldn't answer it, and I suspect that you won't be able to either.

The problem arose because nobody, from GK on down to (especially) the SWAPA negotiators, ever thought we would stand up for ourselves and demand better than a staple. This is why the only defense SWAPA can muster in the aftermath is "well...ummm... they wouldn't return our calls..." Weak.

I also see a whole lot of people on here insisting that the senior FAPA guys sold us junior FO's down the river. Over and over I hear this. Funnny thing though, I've never, ever heard a Frontier pilot say it. And I feel exactly the opposite. But what do I know? You got hired by Southwest so you are obviously much smarter than I.


At the end of the day, we here at F9 are damned if we do, and damned if we don't.


- We stand up for ourselves and demand better than a staple (something, that if accepted, would have TRULY brought down the profession as so many are fond of parroting) and all we ever hear is how stupid we are for not bending over.


- We take a pay freeze and lose 6 months of 401K matching, etc. to battle high priced oil, intense fare competition at both hubs, and the ever-present 'spurned suitor' who has been trying to kick down our doors (unsuccessfully) for years now. Yet all we hear is how stupid we are.

We have a boatload of player-haters out there knocking everything we do. Bring it on. By default, that still means that we are a player. The more you talk about us, just shows how much you care.

Although they are few and far between, thanks to those out there who have wished us well. Myself and my family appreciate the support.

 

[ivauir]

Or I can save you the time: It was the exact same as their initial offer - staple. And then again, staple. And after that, staple.

What was FAPA's position?

 

[Toobdrvr]

Who cares...

 

[Fubijaakr]

Exactly. SWA/F9 chatter is water under the bridge. That ship has sailed boys. It isn't EVER coming back.

 

[SWA/FO]

Or I can save you the time: It was the exact same as their initial offer - staple. And then again, staple. And after that, staple.

Bet you'd take that staple now? Very sad turn of events for F9.

 

[IBNAV8R]

What's the difference between stapling Frontier and "fair" SLI for AirTran? I'm not getting it.

 

[5-early]

I know some fantastic SWA folks. It is bothersome to see the unbelievable arrogance displayed regarding this subject by WN pilots. It is one thing to be in a great job and proud of where you work but to be on your high-horse continually belittling others is another thing.

Enjoy your great job at WN, it is a fabulous place and you have a great future. Just give a try to understanding and respecting the fact that others could actually be happy and proud working someplace else.

No one is guaranteed eternal immunity in this business. As hard as it might be to fathom, not even the now great Southwest.

 

[SWA/FO]

I know some fantastic SWA folks. It is bothersome to see the unbelievable arrogance displayed regarding this subject by WN pilots. It is one thing to be in a great job and proud of where you work but to be on your high-horse continually belittling others is another thing.

Enjoy your great job at WN, it is a fabulous place and you have a great future. Just give a try to understanding and respecting the fact that others could actually be happy and proud working someplace else.

No one is guaranteed eternal immunity in this business. As hard as it might be to fathom, not even the now great Southwest.

true dat!

 

[Flycatcher99]

I know some fantastic SWA folks. It is bothersome to see the unbelievable arrogance displayed regarding this subject by WN pilots. It is one thing to be in a great job and proud of where you work but to be on your high-horse continually belittling others is another thing.

Enjoy your great job at WN, it is a fabulous place and you have a great future. Just give a try to understanding and respecting the fact that others could actually be happy and proud working someplace else.

No one is guaranteed eternal immunity in this business. As hard as it might be to fathom, not even the now great Southwest.

I hope you are not referring to me. I myself showed sympathy for the f9 folks. It's truly unfortunate what has happened to them.

To arjayeffo, the story I heard was that there was insufficient time to process the incredulity resulting from FAPA's ridiculous demands, and then to determine a counteroffer. Perhaps there was not going to be a counteroffer. In other words, maybe a staple is all they were prepared to offer. I'm not trying to be arrogant, just speculating. And when I say the union sold their folks down the river, I'm only speaking from what I myself heard from friends who are FO's there. Their specific words to me the day after the swa deal fell thru were, "we would have been happy to be stapled to SWA's list". Does that sound to you like they f9 folks were well represented by fapa?

 

[GuppyWN]

I just think the whole thing is sad. My question is -

Now that BB is looking to divest over 51% of F9, what happens? I can only assume that you are NOT going to be integrated with RAH and you'll have another SLI to deal with when 51% is sold?

I don't care who didn't call who back or whatever really happened. I just wish you guys had been SWAPA pilots by now.

Gup

 

[Dan Roman]

I don't care who didn't call who back or whatever really happened. I just wish you guys had all been JUNIOR TO ME as SWAPA pilots by now.

Gup

I fixed that for you Gup!
This is a crazy business, you never know how it could turn out. They may well end up much better off not stapled onto the bottom of your list. Absolutely no guaranties there.
SWA has been very successful finding their own niche, you are now going to take on the legacy carriers who have consolidated and are stronger with fewer competitors than they have ever had before. Also, SWA, as you guys who have been boasting about your recent big pay raises will attest too, has higher operating costs than ever before (and of course you don't have the fuel hedging advantage you enjoyed in the past). So things could definitely change for the bottom of SWA's list down the road.
I know you are concerned about them, but they may very well be just fine.
This business is very cyclical, for everyone.

 

[Dan Roman]

The fact that so many of you guys seem to gain enjoyment in rubbing our noses in something that didn't happen is rather amazing and disgusting at the same time.
.

This is really the issue here and seems to hit the nail on the head with the SWA folks on here.

Perhaps the FAPA guys realized they had something of value (strong DEN hub) and didn't think it was prudent to just take any offer that came their way no matter how weak. They may end up being hero's if another investor comes along and helps them realize their full potential.
It certainly ain't over till it's over.

 

[waveflyer]

Really Dan?
I mean seriously?
That's just disrespectful to their situation at frontier. I love Frontier. Some of my best friends are there. And I truly wish they had the humility at the top to accept a staple. So many more positive things would be happening to the pilots as a result. And I say that knowing I would love to throw gear for any one of my friends-

But it is amazing to me how ANYONE could possibly say they wouldn't have been better off with SWA than republic. I've had some of the best jobs in flying and a few of the worst- I know good and bad and from day 1 at the bottom, and through a pretty stagnant time, my life has never been better.

It certainly is water under the bridge, and i never would bring it up to them bc it isnt useful, much less RUB their noses in it. And I do not believe it was a bid that needed to be successful to achieve swa's objective. Either they get frontier at a good price with little labor strife OR they get an honest look at the books and make Bedford pay a LOT more to get it- which is what happened.

But there is simply no question that virtually every FO at frontier has their resume up to date and is checking their options around the industry and biding their time AND hoping to be spun off without integrating. Capts too, though not quite as antsy. If they had got on the swa list they'd all be secure with a
few hundred pilots under them, and all be making well into 6-figures.

I know frontier pilots are happy being frontier pilots- but frontier was and is in a world of hurt financially- a whole lot has to go right in order for them to keep being frontier and not republic. Or out of a job. Why choose to negotiate with King Kong, when king kong is offering a few $Million each to get on the bottom and join the team?

I have no problem saying that on FI. Sometimes you just have to make hard
choices and be aware of your lot in life. And so much of life is in RECOGNIZING opportunities when they come

You weren't damned if you do, damned if you don't.

You were rich and secure with a good schedule if you did, and damned that you didn't.

You're confusing the situation with some sort of immoral selling out instead of the great and wise opportunity that it was- but you had to take it and run with it! Instead your leaders tried to negotiate....??? I'm sorry, but all your troubles today only highlight that the staple was a good offer.

Make no mistake in this cut-throat airline business. SWA is now trying to put you out- and is working their tail off to get every DEN pax they can.

 

[SWA/FO]

This is really the issue here and seems to hit the nail on the head with the SWA folks on here.

true dat.

 

[greenpilot]

Really Dan?
I mean seriously?
That's just disrespectful to their situation at frontier. I love Frontier. Some of my best friends are there. And I truly wish they had the humility at the top to accept a staple. So many more positive things would be happening to the pilots as a result. And I say that knowing I would love to throw gear for any one of my friends at F9

What a bunch of BS. If you would love to throw gear for them then you would have offered better then a staple job.

It amazes me that swa pilots feel the only fair integration is a staple job. Where is all the LUV you guys talk about.

 

[IBNAV8R]

So I'm left to assume SWA pilots will just "fairly" staple AT guys to the bottom. Seems to be the M.O. Why change now?

 

[Fubijaakr]

No one is guaranteed eternal immunity in this business. As hard as it might be to fathom, not even the now great Southwest.

So true. In 1990, UAL was going to take over the world. Look where they are now.

So I'm left to assume SWA pilots will just "fairly" staple AT guys to the bottom. Seems to be the M.O. Why change now?

It always has been in the past. Why change now? The head scratcher is how a guy can stand there and tell me how great the SWA culture is with a "hired not acquired" bag tag on his luggage.

 

[trip]

Bet you'd take that staple now? Very sad turn of events for F9.

What a prick^^^

 

[SWA/FO]

What a prick^^^

true dat!

 

[scoreboardII]

[ Where is all the LUV you guys talk about.

It starts by having a servants heart and entering the esteemed institution at the bottom rung just like every other employee has for over 40 years.

 

[IBNAV8R]

It starts by having a servants heart and entering the esteemed institution at the bottom rung just like every other employee has for over 40 years.

Glad to see you guys standing firm. NO SLI WITH AIR TRAN!!!!!

 

[dicko]

Glad to see you guys standing firm. NO SLI WITH AIR TRAN!!!!!

Scorecard,

It looks like you've got the regional non union lifer on your side.

You've surely got the USAPA Easties on your side too. A group widely known for it's integrity and servants heart. Not so much warriors, as they are litigators though.

Quite the team of supporters shaping up .....

 

[Fubijaakr]

It starts by having a servants heart and entering the esteemed institution at the bottom rung just like every other employee has for over 40 years.

You could just simplify this balderdash by cutting and pasting this from now on:

HIRED NOT ACQUIRED

 

[Dan Roman]

Really Dan?
I mean seriously?
That's just disrespectful to their situation at frontier. I love Frontier. Some of my best friends are there. And I truly wish they had the humility at the top to accept a staple. So many more positive things would be happening to the pilots as a result. And I say that knowing I would love to throw gear for any one of my friends-

But it is amazing to me how ANYONE could possibly say they wouldn't have been better off with SWA than republic. I've had some of the best jobs in flying and a few of the worst- I know good and bad and from day 1 at the bottom, and through a pretty stagnant time, my life has never been better.

It certainly is water under the bridge, and i never would bring it up to them bc it isnt useful, much less RUB their noses in it. And I do not believe it was a bid that needed to be successful to achieve swa's objective. Either they get frontier at a good price with little labor strife OR they get an honest look at the books and make Bedford pay a LOT more to get it- which is what happened.

But there is simply no question that virtually every FO at frontier has their resume up to date and is checking their options around the industry and biding their time AND hoping to be spun off without integrating. Capts too, though not quite as antsy. If they had got on the swa list they'd all be secure with a
few hundred pilots under them, and all be making well into 6-figures.

I know frontier pilots are happy being frontier pilots- but frontier was and is in a world of hurt financially- a whole lot has to go right in order for them to keep being frontier and not republic. Or out of a job. Why choose to negotiate with King Kong, when king kong is offering a few $Million each to get on the bottom and join the team?

I have no problem saying that on FI. Sometimes you just have to make hard
choices and be aware of your lot in life. And so much of life is in RECOGNIZING opportunities when they come

You weren't damned if you do, damned if you don't.

You were rich and secure with a good schedule if you did, and damned that you didn't.

You're confusing the situation with some sort of immoral selling out instead of the great and wise opportunity that it was- but you had to take it and run with it! Instead your leaders tried to negotiate....??? I'm sorry, but all your troubles today only highlight that the staple was a good offer.

Make no mistake in this cut-throat airline business. SWA is now trying to put you out- and is working their tail off to get every DEN pax they can.

Wave, I like a lot of your posts and you can do a good job of being balanced, but you missed my point.
All I'm saying is, unless F9 shuts down, anything can happen, especially in this business. Whose to say Bedford won't sell F9 because he bit of more than he can chew?? The F9 pilots may not want to be stapled on the bottom of anyone's list so why not respect that. SWA is great for some, but not everyone thinks it's the end all be all of airlines. It's not everyone's cup of tea, I'm sure a lot of F9 pilots didn't want to give up living in DEN, can't blame them for that. Again, they are trying to make a career there as we all are with our respective airlines. Being stapled on the bottom of SWA's list is not all that great for many in our line of work.

I made the true observation that anything can happen to any airline, including SWA. You are far from the industry "King Kong" You have been quite successful competing with the car (Quote from Kelleher). You haven't done a lot of head to head competing with the legacies. You are now changing that MO as there is not a lot of room to continue expanding new markets under the radar. Which is fine and I'm sure you will do OK. But SWA doesn't have the same cost advantage it used to enjoy. They are paying much higher wages now than they use to and they don't have the fuel hedge advantage that served them so well in the past. A lot of press of late saying SWA is not that cheap anymore. SWA has done a great job getting the perception that they are a bargain, as soon as the public thinks they are not a bargain they could be in trouble. Public opinion is a very fickle thing, but trying to change it is like fighting a tsunami.

Anything can happen. As was said on here, UAL was going to take over the world in the 90's. Pan Am was the "Chosen One" for Intl flying at one time. Piedmont had as good or better labor relations than SWA and was just as financially strong, USAir was even more financially fit when they merged with Piedmont and look at them now. Two strong airlines merged and created a weak one, that should tell you something.
The point is, anything can happen and the SWA narcissism that is so prevalent on here has been played out here many times in this business before and it always seems to come home and roost.

 

[Dan Roman]

Really Dan?

Make no mistake in this cut-throat airline business. SWA is now trying to put you out- and is working their tail off to get every DEN pax they can.

No your not, I work for Hawaiian.
Kind of another example of that SWA narcissism, you guys seem to think you are going to go around kicking everyone's ass. It's a bit unseemly and one way our professional bar has been lowered. We all compete, I'm not that naive, but for some reason some of the SWA guys act like High School kids rather than grown professionals. A lot of us have grown out of that.
Taxing like Sebastian Vettel, cutting people off, boasting "we are going to kick your ass" etc is a lowering of the professional bar, not raising it. It exists at all airlines, but it sure seems to be more prevalent at SWA.

 

[SWA/FO]

Glad to see you guys standing firm. NO SLI WITH AIR TRAN!!!!!

That would be a DEAL!

 

[slaquer5]

No your not, I work for Hawaiian.
Kind of another example of that SWA narcissism, you guys seem to think you are going to go around kicking everyone's ass. It's a bit unseemly and one way our professional bar has been lowered. We all compete, I'm not that naive, but for some reason some of the SWA guys act like High School kids rather than grown professionals. A lot of us have grown out of that.
Taxing like Sebastian Vettel, cutting people off, boasting "we are going to kick your ass" etc is a lowering of the professional bar, not raising it. It exists at all airlines, but it sure seems to be more prevalent at SWA.

WOW, Dan just how bad do you hate SWA. You need to get out and get shagged .

 

[Dan Roman]

WOW, Dan just how bad do you hate SWA. You need to get out and get shagged .

LOL, not bad at all. I'm just calling foul on the perception that stapling a pilot group on the bottom of someone else's list is a win/win deal. I actually think SWA is a very good airline job. I just don't think they are the only very good airline job. I also have grown weary of the constant putdowns of everything non SWA on here by some of the SWA folks. You guys really are not the center of the airline universe, no one is.

 

[Dan Roman]

BTW, just because someone doesn't have the same perception about something you do doesn't mean they are a hater. It's not that black and white.