What up at Republic/Frontier???

[Redtailer]

Redtailer:

I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but it's wrong with regard to Frontier. Our current rates can be found in Appendix 1 of Letter of Agreement 21 on the the 3/2/2011 table. 14 year rate for CA is $149 and FO is $89.40.

We were due to receive a raise on 7/1/2011 and 1/1/2012. These scheduled future raises will not happen. In addition, everyone will skip their next yearly longevity raise.

Not disagreeing with the general tone of your post, believe me. I've never seen paycuts save an airline.

Got those numbers from here: http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/frontier.html

Guess they were off, but the sad part is that they are worse than what I posted.

So after the 20% paycut that puts the F9 pilots at $119 and $71. That is just embarrassingly low. Why even work at an airline at those rates?

 

[StaySeated]

This is not the truth.

One of the SWAPA negotiators got on here a while back and described what happened. The FAPA negotiators would not return calls or answer the phone during the last day leading up to the auction.

FAPA signed a LOA with Bryan Bedford of Republic and had already made their choice, there was no actual negotiation with SWAPA.

I feel for the Frontier guys, but like Steve Jobs, you all seem to be living in a reality distortion field. Gary Kelly said that he wouldn't purchase Frontier absent a seniority agreement, and he didn't purchase Frontier when there was no seniority agreement.

Would he have outbid Bedford had an agreement been reached? Nobody knows, but we do know that he would not have bought Frontier--regardless of price--without a seniority agreement between FAPA and SWAPA.

Personally, I think you guys are/were insane, but then again, we apparently have different priorities about what a desirable career in aviation looks like.

You guys got a water-cannon salute for fending off Southwest Airlines. Wow. What's a SWAPA pilot career worth? $4m? What's a Frontier career worth? $1.5m? Each of you spent $2.5 million dollars to save the animals. That's pretty expensive, I hope Bedford makes it up to you.

Sorry, here is the truth. Whomever told you that SWAPA tried to contact FAPA is either lying or misinformed.

This email was sent to the FAPA president at 11:32 AM MDT, on August 13.

From: win(redacted remainder of email address)

Date: August 13, 2009 11:32:31 AM MDT

To: John (redacted remainder of email address)

Cc: Carl (redacted), Merger Acquisition

Subject: talks


John,

I know nothing has transpired yet with regard to the SWA bid. I certainly don't think we need to have face time in the next few days if things are just status quo, but we were wondering what your thoughts were on our next talks.

Tom
M&A

​

You can note that there is no reference to any unanswered phone calls.

You can also see that Tom referred to "face time" over the next few days. This is because FAPA and SWAPA were planning on meeting over the weekend. This is also something I have stated numerous times on this board.

This was the extent of the communication between FAPA and SWAPA on the day that many SWA pilots are claiming that "numerous" phone calls went unanswered. The SWA bid was pulled shortly after this email was sent and the rest is history.

The fact that so many of you guys seem to gain enjoyment in rubbing our noses in something that didn't happen is rather amazing and disgusting at the same time.

I could care less anymore which is why I decided to post the email that was forwarded to me.

 

[StaySeated]

Got those numbers from here: http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/frontier.html

Guess they were off, but the sad part is that they are worse than what I posted.

So after the 20% paycut that puts the F9 pilots at $119 and $71. That is just embarrassingly low. Why even work at an airline at those rates?

You quoted my post above that states there is NO PAYCUT, yet you keep on claiming that we approved a 20% paycut.

Read slowly....LOA 67 does not reduce hourly pay rates.

There is no 20% paycut. We deferred two raises that were supposed to occur in July and January. Those raises will still happen, and the date depends on a number of different moving pieces.

Once again. These "concessions" include the deferment of raises, not a cut in pay.

 

[arjayeffo]

Redtailer...

Know won iz takeing a 20 purrcent pay kut.

But keep posting, I do come here for entertainment purposes.

 

[aviatrix767]

You quoted my post above that states there is NO PAYCUT, yet you keep on claiming that we approved a 20% paycut.

Read slowly....LOA 67 does not reduce hourly pay rates.

There is no 20% paycut. We deferred two raises that were supposed to occur in July and January. Those raises will still happen, and the date depends on a number of different moving pieces.

Once again. These "concessions" include the deferment of raises, not a cut in pay.

Just curious...have you ever taken a course in basic economics? (And passed?)

 

[Jar Jar]

There is no 20% paycut. We deferred two raises that were supposed to occur in July and January.

How nice of you folks to take concessions to an all new level! No longer does Mgmt need paycuts, the pilots just stop getting raises.. Even better! Way to go!!

 

[DoubtingThomas]

Does this pay freeze mean that all the 'new-hire' F9 F/Os that resigned their RAH seniority and crossed over will be stuck at $37/hr for the next two years?

 

[5-early]

Does this pay freeze mean that all the 'new-hire' F9 F/Os that resigned their RAH seniority and crossed over will be stuck at $37/hr for the next two years?

No, those gents will move to $60.74/hour on their 1 year anniversary.

 

[OpenClimb]

Redtailer:

I'm sorry I wasn't very clear in my previous post. The rates I quoted are the rates we have now and will continue to have (assuming we stay in business) for a minimum of 1 year. As the other guy pointed out, we didn't take an X-percent pay cut OFF of those rates. We're just not getting a raise in July, 2011, Jan, 2012 and will skip one year of longevity raise.

Yes, believe me, I'm well aware that these are concessions. All told, 1 year from now, the pay, vacation and sick time givebacks will reduce my annual income by about $14,000 from where it would have been if we had received the pay increases as originally scheduled. Right now, today, my paycheck won't change a bit, but my sick and vacation accrual will be reduced by .17 days per month and .25 days per month, respectively (i.e., I'm giving up 2 sick days per year and 3 vacation days per year).

Understand that I'm not trying to be argumentative and I'm not trying to gloss over the fact that we gave concessions for dubious (at best) reasons. There's just so much mis-information out there that I wanted to try and clear this up before the misconception takes on a life of its own.

 

[IBNAV8R]

I guess it's easy to be smug about "holding the bar", when you haven't been ate up and crapped out - not wondering if your company will be around in a year - in especially harsh economic times.

Godspeed F9 guys (and gals)

 

[Flycatcher99]

This is not the truth.

One of the SWAPA negotiators got on here a while back and described what happened. The FAPA negotiators would not return calls or answer the phone during the last day leading up to the auction.

FAPA signed a LOA with Bryan Bedford of Republic and had already made their choice, there was no actual negotiation with SWAPA.

I feel for the Frontier guys, but like Steve Jobs, you all seem to be living in a reality distortion field. Gary Kelly said that he wouldn't purchase Frontier absent a seniority agreement, and he didn't purchase Frontier when there was no seniority agreement.

Would he have outbid Bedford had an agreement been reached? Nobody knows, but we do know that he would not have bought Frontier--regardless of price--without a seniority agreement between FAPA and SWAPA.

Personally, I think you guys are/were insane, but then again, we apparently have different priorities about what a desirable career in aviation looks like.

You guys got a water-cannon salute for fending off Southwest Airlines. Wow. What's a SWAPA pilot career worth? $4m? What's a Frontier career worth? $1.5m? Each of you spent $2.5 million dollars to save the animals. That's pretty expensive, I hope Bedford makes it up to you.

I flew with a SWA BOD member, and he related to me the turns of events. In short, the FAPA negotiators were very hard to keep in contact with, and were very obstinate. After the initial offer from swapa, the only response from FAPA was for a merged list that included indefinite fenced protections in den, furlough pay (!), and other ridiculous demands.

I wish absolutely no ill will toward F9 folks, and in fact have several good friends there. But their union powers absolutely sold them down the river.

 

[arjayeffo]

yet again...

I flew with a SWA BOD member, and he related to me the turns of events. In short, the FAPA negotiators were very hard to keep in contact with, and were very obstinate. After the initial offer from swapa, the only response from FAPA was for a merged list that included indefinite fenced protections in den, furlough pay (!), and other ridiculous demands.

I wish absolutely no ill will toward F9 folks, and in fact have several good friends there. But their union powers absolutely sold them down the river.

Next time you fly with him, ask him what their counter offer to FAPA's initial ask was.


Or I can save you the time: It was the exact same as their initial offer - staple. And then again, staple. And after that, staple.


If a telemarketer kept calling your house to try to sell you the same piece of crap, that you didn't want, over and over, wouldn't you be excused for not rushing back to the phone every single time to hear the pitch again?

Staple was all they ever offered, and indeed all they ever had the power to offer in their 'well-designed' timeframe to accomplish the integration. Yet FAPA was the one being obstinate?? Dictionary.com defines the word as: "characterized by inflexible persistence or an unyielding attitude". Again, if it was truly 'negotiations' taking place, then what was SWAPA's second offer? When I asked this question months ago, the other guy couldn't answer it, and I suspect that you won't be able to either.

The problem arose because nobody, from GK on down to (especially) the SWAPA negotiators, ever thought we would stand up for ourselves and demand better than a staple. This is why the only defense SWAPA can muster in the aftermath is "well...ummm... they wouldn't return our calls..." Weak.

I also see a whole lot of people on here insisting that the senior FAPA guys sold us junior FO's down the river. Over and over I hear this. Funnny thing though, I've never, ever heard a Frontier pilot say it. And I feel exactly the opposite. But what do I know? You got hired by Southwest so you are obviously much smarter than I.


At the end of the day, we here at F9 are damned if we do, and damned if we don't.


- We stand up for ourselves and demand better than a staple (something, that if accepted, would have TRULY brought down the profession as so many are fond of parroting) and all we ever hear is how stupid we are for not bending over.


- We take a pay freeze and lose 6 months of 401K matching, etc. to battle high priced oil, intense fare competition at both hubs, and the ever-present 'spurned suitor' who has been trying to kick down our doors (unsuccessfully) for years now. Yet all we hear is how stupid we are.

We have a boatload of player-haters out there knocking everything we do. Bring it on. By default, that still means that we are a player. The more you talk about us, just shows how much you care.

Although they are few and far between, thanks to those out there who have wished us well. Myself and my family appreciate the support.

 

[ivauir]

Or I can save you the time: It was the exact same as their initial offer - staple. And then again, staple. And after that, staple.

What was FAPA's position?

 

[Toobdrvr]

Who cares...

 

[Fubijaakr]

Exactly. SWA/F9 chatter is water under the bridge. That ship has sailed boys. It isn't EVER coming back.

 

[SWA/FO]

Or I can save you the time: It was the exact same as their initial offer - staple. And then again, staple. And after that, staple.

Bet you'd take that staple now? Very sad turn of events for F9.

 

[IBNAV8R]

What's the difference between stapling Frontier and "fair" SLI for AirTran? I'm not getting it.

 

[5-early]

I know some fantastic SWA folks. It is bothersome to see the unbelievable arrogance displayed regarding this subject by WN pilots. It is one thing to be in a great job and proud of where you work but to be on your high-horse continually belittling others is another thing.

Enjoy your great job at WN, it is a fabulous place and you have a great future. Just give a try to understanding and respecting the fact that others could actually be happy and proud working someplace else.

No one is guaranteed eternal immunity in this business. As hard as it might be to fathom, not even the now great Southwest.

 

[SWA/FO]

I know some fantastic SWA folks. It is bothersome to see the unbelievable arrogance displayed regarding this subject by WN pilots. It is one thing to be in a great job and proud of where you work but to be on your high-horse continually belittling others is another thing.

Enjoy your great job at WN, it is a fabulous place and you have a great future. Just give a try to understanding and respecting the fact that others could actually be happy and proud working someplace else.

No one is guaranteed eternal immunity in this business. As hard as it might be to fathom, not even the now great Southwest.

true dat!

 

[Flycatcher99]

I know some fantastic SWA folks. It is bothersome to see the unbelievable arrogance displayed regarding this subject by WN pilots. It is one thing to be in a great job and proud of where you work but to be on your high-horse continually belittling others is another thing.

Enjoy your great job at WN, it is a fabulous place and you have a great future. Just give a try to understanding and respecting the fact that others could actually be happy and proud working someplace else.

No one is guaranteed eternal immunity in this business. As hard as it might be to fathom, not even the now great Southwest.

I hope you are not referring to me. I myself showed sympathy for the f9 folks. It's truly unfortunate what has happened to them.

To arjayeffo, the story I heard was that there was insufficient time to process the incredulity resulting from FAPA's ridiculous demands, and then to determine a counteroffer. Perhaps there was not going to be a counteroffer. In other words, maybe a staple is all they were prepared to offer. I'm not trying to be arrogant, just speculating. And when I say the union sold their folks down the river, I'm only speaking from what I myself heard from friends who are FO's there. Their specific words to me the day after the swa deal fell thru were, "we would have been happy to be stapled to SWA's list". Does that sound to you like they f9 folks were well represented by fapa?