What to do? What to do?

[Flylo]

As a complete outsider and a low time pilot who has no bones to pick with anyone in the aviation industry; I'd like to ask a few questions and make an observation or two (as a consumer) about the current financial state of some of the major carriers
and the relationship of their plight, to their pilots' wages.


FIRST OBSERVATION:

I'm planing a round-trip to Orlando from Chicago later this month so I got these quotations off the internet this morning.

Standard Fare, Refundable: - UAL - $1,446.50 -- -- SWA - $458.00

Lower or Discount Fare ------ UAL --- $666.50 -- -- SWA - $268.00


FIRST QUESTION:

Hummmm, If Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were traveling together, I wonder which one they'd take?

I realize, of course, that I would have to suffer the indignity of downtown Chicago traffic to get to MDW and would miss out on the earth shaking thrill of departing from ORD if I went with SWA. But......


SECOND OBSERVATION:

UAL employs about 10,000 pilots (or did). <I know this isn't exactly right but bear with me> If each one of those pilots is being paid $300,000 per year and they take a 50% pay cut, that would save UAL about $125,000,000 per month.


THIRD OBSERVATION:

UAL announced that they lost $382,000,000 in January. (Let's see....I believe that would still leave $257,000,000 in the RED)


SECOND QUESTION;

Is it possible that something besides employee wages (other than managements', of course) could be the problem?


FOURTH OBSERVATION: (and possible partial solution)

Pilots' wages don't appear, at least to this untutored observer, to be the real problem. If I were a stock holder in UAL I would try my best to get the management team tarred and feathered and them use their charred and fuzzy corpses to fill
potholes in the runway.


THIRD QUESTION:

Why, if September 11th is the problem, is SWA still making money and charging so much less?


FOURTH QUESTION:

Which flight would you book?



Light 'em up!!

 

[350DRIVER]

Hummmm, If Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were traveling together, I wonder which one they'd take?

I would be highly surprised if they would ever be flying on SWA so my guess would be UAL although I am pretty sure they are able to "charter" equipment of there choice around the globe. I don't think "money" is a major concern when they travel.

Which flight would you book?

UAL without a second thought "if" company was paying for the ticket since I am no fan of SWA at all ... Most consumers want one thing when they look at airfare, that would be LOWEST and CHEAPEST fare, that is why SWA has always done so well.

Why, if September 11th is the problem, is SWA still making money and charging so much less?

First, the airlines were in trouble long before 9-11. Look at how SWA operates and that explains most if not all... They are a "low cost carrier" nothing more and nothing less. You get what you pay for and there are enough Americans who are cost conservative that continue to fly SWA, I just prefer to be not one of them. They also pay there pilots much much less than a UAL or DAL, operate ONE type of equipment (737's), less perks, different route structure's, different business platform, etc, etc, etc, etc, so that also helps keep costs down.- They will always profit whether ya like em or hate em.


I have always enjoyed "service" and "convenience" more than just looking for the cheapest carrier to fly on.

I sure hope DAL UAL and the others are around for years to come.

Alot is personal preference-

3 5 0

 

[Stephen]

I don't have all the answers, but there are a few problems with your math.

Hummmm, If Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were traveling together, I wonder which one they'd take?

Between NetJets and the MS flight department, those two men might control more planes than United or Southwest

If each one of those pilots is being paid $300,000 per year and they take a 50% pay cut, that would save UAL about $125,000,000 per month.

That's the problem with the public's perception of pilot wages. The pilots making $300K are the 777 captains with 30 years seniority. The average wage is much, much lower. I don't mean to say that United's pilots are starving, just that their wages are often overstated.

Which flight would you book?

Can I fly myself?

Stephen

 

[FlyingSig]

I'm not sure where you got your numbers, but my simple web search yielded different results.

Using 21 day advance purchase numbers, you can go non-stop on United MCO-ORD for $219, or, make one connection and the price lowers to $179.

Southwest was still a little cheaper with a few $169 flights still left or you could take your pick of $229 flights.

Got my numbers from orbitz.com and southwest.com (since they're not listed on orbitz)

 

[pilotyip]

you missed the whole productivity thing

It is not the pay it is the productivity. Prior to chap 11, the average UAL pilot flew 35 hours per month and was paid for over 80, so you take his high wage and then you need twice as many of them to do the same job as a SWA or JB pilot. UAL has too many pilots for the routes it flys. The comparison of a JB cockpit cost per hour of $400 and UAL's of over $1,000. It is not the pay killing the majors, it is a productivity gap with the LLC's. UAL needs to cut wages 30% and increase each pilots flying by 50%, which means cutting down the pilot force by 25% to 30%. Then there is the management bashing, if you fired every manager in the company, what would you save, maybe 25M over a year, thats chicken feed. Who would run the company? Did management make a bad decision in giving the pilots there industry leading contract, was that management's doing? Was managment forced into a bad decison by the pilot's holding the company hostage with sick calls and trip delays?

 

[flydog]

My experience has been that SWA and Jet Blue are the most expensive unless you are bying a last minute walkup ticket.

I can fly LAX-FLL for $219 round trip on AA, Spirit, etc. On SWA and Jet Blue its at least twice that.

I always wondered when I am in one of those nice shiny AA 767s how they could possibly make money charging $200 round trip coast to coast

 

[Flylo]

NEVER Doubt the Power of the Pen!!

I got the above rates off the SWA and UAL sites this morning. UAL has a "fare finder" box in the top left hand corner. I entered the same dates at both sites and came up with the numbers I posted above. I did NOT make those numbers up!

HOWEVER,

I just checked again, to make sure I didn't screw up and lo and behold -- It is now CHEAPER to fly from Chicago to Orlando on UNITED than SWA!!

United : Standard - $302.50 -- Advanced - $231.50

Southwest: Standard - $410.00 -- Special - $268.00

My guess is that somebody with fuzzy stones read my earlier posting and got those rates blasted.

Thanks for the replies. I'm learning a lot. (and apparently so are others)

Ain't this a great site?

 

[Draginass]

Actually it's probably just the stupid, inane, and deliberately incomprehensible pricing policy in the airline industry these days. If you can find anybody that understands it, let us know.

 

[aviatrix]

I'm not sure where you got your numbers, but my simple web search yielded different results.

Using 21 day advance purchase numbers, you can go non-stop on United MCO-ORD for $219, or, make one connection and the price lowers to $179.

Southwest was still a little cheaper with a few $169 flights still left or you could take your pick of $229 flights.

Got my numbers from orbitz.com and southwest.com (since they're not listed on orbitz)

Well, FlyingSig.....if aviation ever falls through for you, you could always become a travel agent! Looks like you got one of them there computers that gets the good deals!

 

[dmspilot00]

Re: Re: What to do? What to do?

That's the problem with the public's perception of pilot wages. The pilots making $300K are the 777 captains with 30 years seniority. The average wage is much, much lower.

I believe that you took the original post out of context. If you continued reading, it said

"UAL announced that they lost $382,000,000 in January. (Let's see....I believe [if pilot wages were reduced to 125,000] that would still leave $257,000,000 in the RED)"

What he is saying that worst-case scenario, if every pilot made $300,000 and each salary was reduced by half, it would barely put a dent in UAL's losses. Since we know they don't make that much, then obviously UAL's financial troubles are not caused by high pilot wages.

 

[Stephen]

Re: Re: Re: What to do? What to do?

I believe that you took the original post out of context. If you continued reading, it said

"UAL announced that they lost $382,000,000 in January. (Let's see....I believe [if pilot wages were reduced to 125,000] that would still leave $257,000,000 in the RED)"

You're absolutely right. My "correction" improves his argument. My point was that a lot of folks think that every airline pilot makes $300,000/year and works 10 days per month. Don't we wish.

 

[Indapool]

My experience has been that SWA and Jet Blue are the most expensive unless you are bying a last minute walkup ticket.

BUllsh!t meter is at full scale deflection on that one

 

[bigD]

Well actually, that's very true for some routes, or maybe some parts of the year. I fly home (to LAX, BUR, etc.. from AUS) twice a year. I always plan the trips ahead, so I take advantage of the lower fares 21 days out. My tickets are the non-refundable type, and my trip usually leaves Austin on a Wednesday or Thursday, and gets back Sunday night. I've been doing this for 6 years now.

Not once has SWA quoted me the lowest fare. I find myself on Delta, America West, United, and American. My fares tend to be in the upper 100's or lower 200's for a round trip ticket. Every once in awhile it'll be $279 or something like that. But not once has SWA given me the lowest fare.

Obviously this doesn't at all indicate some kind of trend, but for me personally, I find myself flying someone other than SWA for cost reasons.

 

[Indapool]

hypothetical trip

Depart AUS 4\5
Arrive LAX 4\5

Depart LAX 4\12
Arrive AUS 4\12

SWA..promotional fare= $117-$136
Discount fare= $169
Advance purchase= $190
Restricted fare= $232
Refundable anytime=$261

Orbitz...AA= $251
DTA\AWA=$253
NWA= $276
UAL= $294
Frontier= $315
etc,etc....

Not trying to beat a dead horse or sound like TOO much of a fanboy here You guys may be on to something I'm not.
Either way it's a great time to be paying to be in the back of the bus, and a lousy time to be driving it

 

[Snakum]

Just my .02 ...

I too, can get a NON-STOP AA flight from CLT to SFO for much less than a one-stop SWA from RDU to OAK. I was suprised, too.

I, too, wonder how AA can make money at less than $300 RT.

Minh

 

[getonit]

For all of those guys wondering how they make money RT at 200-300 dollars. THEY DON'T and they won't until they get their costs in line. They are selling the seats cheap because they need the cash flow. I have forgotten all of the accounting/economics (has to do with fixed and variable costs over the short and long run) but it would cost them too much to just quit flying the routes so therfore they sell the cheap seats and hope they can ride out the economy or go file bankruptcy.

 

[LearLove]

Darginass - that about sums it up

"Actually it's probably just the stupid, inane, and deliberately incomprehensible pricing policy in the airline industry these days. If you can find anybody that understands it, let us know."


I can't understand how I can go online and get 4 diff. $$ quotes in 5 minutes for the same flight on the same airline on the same web site.

 

[Stephen]

I , too, wonder how AA can make money at less than $300 RT.

By using this old financial maxim:

"We lose money on every seat, but we make it up in volume."

 

[Kream926]

let me see here
im wondering why i cant find a ticket round trip from tul to buf for less than 370. i flew home for christmas for 250 but because i left christmas day and back on new years. im not planning this untill may but..im wondering will waiting untill about 2-3 weeks prior lower airfare??
and why does SWA have service in tul and buf, but if you try to go through their web site, its tells you there is no flights? im not trying to go direct.............