What is the best way to find corprate job

[Gulfstream 200]

duplicate...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

All due respect to you G200, but brother... look at your type ratings, then look at mine.

For you to say that if you're an airline guy, it's all about attitude, is at best stating what your department is like, and unfortunately doesn't seem to reflect the realities facing furloughed and former airline pilots trying to find a job flying a bizjet.

This is not to say that you're wrong, just incomplete.

There was also a time when I had no type ratings and nothing but a one week stint at a crap regional (I quit)

FWIW 2 of the last 3 pilots we hired had 121 backgrounds, both regional and major. They WERE rec'd internally and did have great attitudes. They have had a little difficulty adapting, but I think will do fine.

I guess my point, aside from the attitude at the interview, is that its tough to land any job, much less
a great job, in a market like todays.

You cant judge your lack of success by todays market - there are many qualified G/GLEX/DA pilots posting daily all over looking for jobs.

Now, if one cant land a job after a period of time in a decent enviornment? - time to look internally (strategy and personality wise) - something is not working.

Good Luck

 

[Fly91]

All due respect to you G200, but brother... look at your type ratings, then look at mine.

For you to say that if you're an airline guy, it's all about attitude, is at best stating what your department is like, and unfortunately doesn't seem to reflect the realities facing furloughed and former airline pilots trying to find a job flying a bizjet.

This is not to say that you're wrong, just incomplete.

A little bit of that attitude that we're talking about is coming out in you right now. Take it easy. It doesn't matter what types you have, if you have a couple types and a descent amount of jet PIC time, its obvious you can fly a plane, any plane. I had only corporate jet time and breezed through my 747 type. And there were a few azzhole airline dickheads that were waiting for me to have a problem. If an ex-airline guy walks into a 91/135 flight department and they're looking for a pilot or two at the time, all they have to do is be like-able, and they'll most likely get hired. Why the hell not hire them. Its not like Part 91/135 operators have a golden rule saying "NO AIRLINE PILOTS." If you think that, then thats your first problem. Only thing I can say to ex-airline guys is: You will be doing things a little differently in the cockpit, so plan on that or don't go corporate.

A pilot is a pilot is a pilot. A jerk-off will most likely always be a jerk-off. Pilots are what we want when we need to hire someone, we don't want jerk-off's.

So, we look for the pilots with good attitudes. If a jerk-off shows up, they have NO chance in hell. I'd rather give up my days off and fly more, rather than sit next to an azzhole or a closet drunk. Not gonna happen.

Nothing wrong with ex-airline guys coming to corporate, just be cool, be a pilot. Thats what operators want.

 

[Cat3C]

jobs

I work for a PT 91 Fortune 50 flight operation and also have flown PT 135. I could care less what the background of the guy (or girl) flying with me as long as several conditions apply (and they are fairly common I think). Be a team player, be a good guy on the road, and don't get me or the company on the front page of the newspaper. We have 91,135, military, and have had 121 (majors) pilots in the department and in the end it really does not matter. Pilots can be trained. After 3 weeks in the sim and groundschool, the plane makes sense. To lump all 91 operations in one pile is a bit strong. Perhaps we are different but yes we have the publications that we all fly in accordance with. They are even signed off by the CEO as well and the pax know the rules. The planes either work or they don't get pushed out of the hanger. And believe me we have had some growing pains with our new ones. We all have ownership of the operation and much to lose if things go wrong.

Obviously there are operations that you would not want to be part of. Just like there are 135 and 121 operations that continuously do things the wrong way. Don't be part of it.

Sorry, rant over. Please don't take offense if I came off the wrong way.

 

[Freight Dog]

There was also a time when I had no type ratings and nothing but a one week stint at a crap regional (I quit)

FWIW 2 of the last 3 pilots we hired had 121 backgrounds, both regional and major. They WERE rec'd internally and did have great attitudes. They have had a little difficulty adapting, but I think will do fine.

I guess my point, aside from the attitude at the interview, is that its tough to land any job, much less
a great job, in a market like todays.

You cant judge your lack of success by todays market - there are many qualified G/GLEX/DA pilots posting daily all over looking for jobs.

Now, if one cant land a job after a period of time in a decent enviornment? - time to look internally (strategy and personality wise) - something is not working.

Good Luck

I agree with you 100% that it's all about good, positive attitude that will get you hired, once you get their attention. I believe that was the original question - how do you get their attention.

As someone else on this board said a few months ago, sell yourself as an employee. The question is how do you get to do that when you don't even get an opportunity to interview, plus often times encounter that anti-airline bias right at "hello" and also question those who ridicule the ones buying their own type ratings to further their careers.

Tough situation.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I agree with you 100% that it's all about good, positive attitude that will get you hired, once you get their attention. I believe that was the original question - how do you get their attention.

As someone else on this board said a few months ago, sell yourself as an employee. The question is how do you get to do that when you don't even get an opportunity to interview, plus often times encounter that anti-airline bias right at "hello" and also question those who ridicule the ones buying their own type ratings to further their careers.

Tough situation.

Not by sending in resumes...

Best way seems to network with pilots that work there. Some of these websites are a good start. I Have gotten plenty of resumes through these sites, we even wound up hiring a few guys from them. While its still the interent, its a good start. The opportunity to match a name to a face, have a few drinks or lunch etc goes much further than an email resume.

I have met a lot of guys in the industry on here, BizAvCentral, and P-P-W.

But as we have said, dont expect too may openings right now - there isn't many. Budgets are on hold. Be ready for when the positions open up.

In all due respect, you seem to really dwell on the "airline stink" and it might be hurting your outlook? Again, 99% of this is market driven...and you are 100% correct...its a "tough situation" if not impossible right now!

Good Luck FD.

 

[Freight Dog]

Thanks man. I really enjoy reading your posts because they are no nonsense, and to the point.

Gotta tell you though... I've been looking around for a 91/135 gig even while I was still gainfully employed at Aloha. The question back then was... "Are you crazy? Why?!?" I simply told them that I felt corporate/GA flying was a much better fit for me having experienced it in a King Air 350 than airline flying. I liked having more responsibilities than just hangin' a left, loading up the box, doing the walkaround and blast off across the ocean. Don't get me wrong... it was the easiest job in the world, but also mind-numbing at the same time. As a younger guy, I *WANT* responsibility, I *WANT* the challenge and an opportunity to rise to the occasion.

Well... needless to say, while Aloha was around... some people looked at me like WTF is wrong with this guy to want to leave a cush 121 gig for GA? That was the feedback I got. Now, that Aloha is no more, it's the "your union speaks your you, right?" or "Well, we had a few hundred other airline pilots apply here, and while your resume looks great, you're not type rated in what we fly."

That's been my frustration all along, and unlike many of my counterparts, I've actually been trying to get out of the airline flying well before any shutdowns or layoffs were even being mentioned.

Do I dwell on it? To a point, yeah I think so, but it's more sharing the frustration than anything else. But like I said, I really enjoy reading your posts and sharing your advice with people. If you're ever in LAS, beer's on me!

 

[contrail67]

I've seen none of the dislike for airline guys who were trying to get into the corporate world. I think its simply more of a dislike of the "I'm God" complex that some airline guys have. They can foget about ever getting into a good corporate job if they show that attitude. And, airline guys have no choice but to do things the corporate way, forget about the airline way. Airline guys are all over the place in the corporate world down here, most good corporate 91 companies have ex-airline pilots as their Chief Pilots and D.O.'s. Almost all of them.

If you're not like that you'll have no problem.

Each airline does things a different way...I am sure a corporate flight department has some standards too,right? The "I'm God" attitude usually fails ANY interview.

 

[Fly91]

Each airline does things a different way...I am sure a corporate flight department has some standards too,right? The "I'm God" attitude usually fails ANY interview.

Good question/comment.

Oh yeah, corporate (91) flight departments definitely have SOP's, not all of them, but all the ones I've been with have some level of SOP's. I've flown Part 121 and the SOP's their were much more involved and detailed. There's a whloe lot more going on with an airliner than with any corporate jet though.

The "I'm GOD" attitude should fail any interview. They should have their licenses/ratings revoked too. There's no room in any kind of aviation operation for these total cheeseballs. All they are are liabilities waiting to happen, and they will happen at some point to some degree.


.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

There's a whloe lot more going on with an airliner than with any corporate jet though.

Ok, i'll bite. Such as?

 

[Fly91]

Ok, i'll bite. Such as?

Well, maybe every airliner isn't as "busy" as others, but the 747 had a hell of a long checklist just to get to the runway. LONG LIST!! And once in the air its not just flaps up, gear up and fly, with an "after take-off checklist" with 8 items on it. It was quite extensive with "exact" challenge/response callouts we had to give. Corp jets are not like that. Without comparing a 747 and a Learjet checklist side-by-side, from brake release to level off at cruise altitude....................................


Corporate jets, compared to that is a picnic..

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Well, maybe every airliner isn't as "busy" as others, but the 747 had a hell of a long checklist just to get to the runway. LONG LIST!! And once in the air its not just flaps up, gear up and fly, with an "after take-off checklist" with 8 items on it. It was quite extensive with "exact" challenge/response callouts we had to give. Corp jets are not like that. Without comparing a 747 and a Learjet checklist side-by-side, from brake release to level off at cruise altitude....................................


Corporate jets, compared to that is a picnic..

Or maybe newer, more automated corporate jets just don't need huge checklists anymore?

A Learjet checklist is longer than a Global Express...etc..

 

[Fly91]

Or maybe newer, more automated corporate jets just don't need huge checklists anymore?

Old or new, there's no comparison in the work load between corp jets and airliners. SOP's are a must in 121 turbo-jet ops. If you want to be as safe as possible of course.

 

[lawfly]

I can think of 6 after take-off checklist items off the top of my head, for the humble CE-500 series...
At NJA, there are SOPs and I have heard that many blue chip (and other) corporate flight departments have them. Many "professional contract pilots" (contract pilot=self-employed for tax purposes and in business for himself/herself) define the job title as meaning that they purchase their own initial types and their recurrency. (In reality, some might be paid as contract pilots, but work out the training/re-currency details with the party hiring them.) My experience is modest compared to many posting here, but I have been hired by 3 different companies, involving 91, 135, and 91/135 mixed. All 3 that I applied to. So, guess I showed an acceptable attitude or whatever. At one of them, a retired 767 airline guy was one of the senior captains. I've flown with ex-military, civilian (91/135), and former airline. Have seen good attitudes and bad attitudes across all of those backgrounds. When you figure out the sure-fire formula for landing a good (emphasize good) corporate gig, let us know. As someone else posted, 91 and 135 jobs run the gamut. I've been practicing law more than flying (135) this year. I might add that my own preferences are in the direction of bizjets, not airliners. Would rather have a good (emphasize good) corporate gig than practice law (except maybe still do some part-time legal work on the side). A 7X? A 450/550? A Global? A Challenger 300/604/605? My dream machines. More fun than drafting interrogatories...

 

[Fly91]

I can think of 6 after take-off checklist items off the top of my head, for the humble CE-500 series...

Thats right, which equates to about a 5 second "after take-off" checklist. Unlike any airliner checklist.

At NJA, there are SOPs and I have heard that many blue chip (and other) corporate flight departments have them.

The good ones do have them, to some degree. I won't fly without them, its just safer and simply the smart way to operate, no matter how many hours someone has in a certain make/model.

A 7X? A 450/550? A Global? My dream machines. More fun than drafting interrogatories...

The money is good....but until you've sat in a cockpit and stared at a windscreen for 10 hours on the long legs that these aircraft do, you really can't say dream "job". Its the most horrible thing to sit that long. Find a good 91 gig that pays the same as the big aircraft, but with 4 hour work days, thats the dream job.

Interrogatories....how about the never ending pleadings you guys have to write and then you settle? But if you're getting paid by the hour, who cares, right?

 

[nwbusdrvr]

Well, maybe every airliner isn't as "busy" as others, but the 747 had a hell of a long checklist just to get to the runway. LONG LIST!! And once in the air its not just flaps up, gear up and fly, with an "after take-off checklist" with 8 items on it. It was quite extensive with "exact" challenge/response callouts we had to give. Corp jets are not like that. Without comparing a 747 and a Learjet checklist side-by-side, from brake release to level off at cruise altitude....................................


Corporate jets, compared to that is a picnic..

Not so sure this statement is true.. The 747-400 has 3 items on the before takeoff check. Flaps, flight controls, and flight instruments. The after takeoff check has 2 items, flaps up, gear up and off. No more checklists until coming through 18000 on the way down. The G550 had about 20 items on the BTO check and nearly as many after the flaps were up. Those Gulfstream lawyers just love covering their butts I guess.

 

[Fly91]

Not so sure this statement is true.. The 747-400 has 3 items on the before takeoff check. Flaps, flight controls, and flight instruments. The after takeoff check has 2 items, flaps up, gear up and off. No more checklists until coming through 18000 on the way down. The G550 had about 20 items on the BTO check and nearly as many after the flaps were up. Those Gulfstream lawyers just love covering their butts I guess.

Try a Classic sometime. And all BTO checklists are short, everything has been checked and taken care of except a few items.

 

[nwbusdrvr]

Try a Classic sometime. And all BTO checklists are short, everything has been checked and taken care of except a few items.

I thought we were comparing corporate vs. airline types? I think the -400 is a bit more representative of todays airliners (2 crew). As I recall, the engineer is doing the vast majority of the housekeeping on the classic. The BTO check (and for that matter all checklists) on all new Gulfstreams (400-550 series) is longer and way more involved than any airliner I've flown. My point is, haven flown both types (along with lots of others) once the motors are started, my experience is airline types are less busy.

 

[Fly91]

I thought we were comparing corporate vs. airline types? I think the -400 is a bit more representative of todays airliners (2 crew). As I recall, the engineer is doing the vast majority of the housekeeping on the classic. The BTO check (and for that matter all checklists) on all new Gulfstreams (400-550 series) is longer and way more involved than any airliner I've flown. My point is, haven flown both types (along with lots of others) once the motors are started, my experience is airline types are less busy.

The majority of airliners and corp jets world-wide are older than dirt.

 

[nwbusdrvr]

The majority of airliners and corp jets world-wide are older than dirt.

well this discussion is really going nowhere. So I guess I'll just leave it at, my experience flying both types of aircraft is not the same as yours.

 

[AA717driver]

Just as every airline has its "culture", every flight department has its "personality" (some would add "disorder" to that statement... )

Not every pilot fits in with every culture at an airline--you just get pounded in the mold with a mallet. If you don't fit the culture at a 91 department, you leave or get canned.

Not everyone will fit in every department--nor can they be made to fit. I think a 3 day trip with a couple of the finalists for a job might not be a bad investment.

I do know of a department that wants to put you on a 90 day contract before they hire you permanently. That's quite a gamble if you're leaving another job for that one.

Wait! Am I off topic? I thought with the discussion of LR's v. 747 Classic checklists, this had become a 'free association' discussion on corporate aviation. Sorry. TC

P.S.--The toughest airplane to learn I've experienced is the 767. The most complex is the G550. I was able to learn and operate both despite anchoring the average intelligence bell curve.

 

[Fly91]

well this discussion is really going nowhere. So I guess I'll just leave it at, my experience flying both types of aircraft is not the same as yours.

I was hoping someone didn't come in here with a specific airplane that has a nice checklist to argue the point, I guess it was coming.

Yup, if you fly a Classic sometime you'll have a much different opinion than the fully automated 744.

 

[say again]

Who really cares how long a checklist is?? Some are short, others are long, for both corporate and airliner a/c.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Who really cares how long a checklist is?? Some are short, others are long, for both corporate and airliner a/c.

The checklist is a mute point, this is about who is RIGHT.

as pilots, we are always right, no matter how rediculous the rest of the world considers us.

Now everyone, go count those F'n items on your taxi and after takeoff check and add another page to this argument. Prove your point.

 

[AA717driver]

G200--I'm not really getting your point. Once again, you're being too subtle...

LMAO!

TC

 

[Bus-Driver]

For what it's worth, I'll jump in here. There really is no difference between a Citation or a regional jet, a gulfstream or a 747. The airlines are required to have very detailed SOP's not only because of FAA oversight, but because the pilots always fly with someone different. When you are a captain who gets placed with a new FO thats on reserve from a different domicile and has little experience you need to know that when you say "wind shear, set max power" he knows exactly what you mean, because he's read the SOP, right? The more pilots you deal with (thousands in most airlines) the more detailed the SOP needs to be.

Corporate jobs on the other hand, while having less FAA oversight, typically have less pilots. Therefore, you most often fly with the same guys, it's much easier to be on the same page and know what the other pilot expects when you have been to sim together and flown together on many occations.

I imagine that the larger a corporate department gets, the more important it is for standardization and an SOP

 

[Fly91]

For what it's worth, I'll jump in here. There really is no difference between a Citation or a regional jet, a gulfstream or a 747. The airlines are required to have very detailed SOP's not only because of FAA oversight, but because the pilots always fly with someone different. When you are a captain who gets placed with a new FO thats on reserve from a different domicile and has little experience you need to know that when you say "wind shear, set max power" he knows exactly what you mean, because he's read the SOP, right? The more pilots you deal with (thousands in most airlines) the more detailed the SOP needs to be.

Corporate jobs on the other hand, while having less FAA oversight, typically have less pilots. Therefore, you most often fly with the same guys, it's much easier to be on the same page and know what the other pilot expects when you have been to sim together and flown together on many occations.

I imagine that the larger a corporate department gets, the more important it is for standardization and an SOP

Yes, it is all about SOP's, and this whole "checklist" thing did start out from an SOP issue between corp jets and airliners. My post #39 says exactly that. But somehow, as always, the subject gets lost and things change.

Even I was able to keep it an SOP issue, some dipsh1t would end up changing things anyway.

Its the internet.

 

[AbOvo]

Not to break in on your checklist fight but what websites can you guys recommend for networking/professional discussion?

 

[Danny040]

corporate

 

[Browntothebone]

I've noticed that some of the more reputable corporate flight departments are profiled in Professional Pilot magazine. You should target those companies for hiring.