What is an "accident"???

[UnAnswerd]

Hey, UnAnswerd... have you called any other Feds an idiot, or just JAFI?

He may be God, but to assume that simple ground school provides all the answers, and then to use such an assumption to degrade an individual's honest question, is in my opinion, very idiotic.

 

[avbug]

Unanswered,


I've been patient in responding to your questions for a while now, but your post here and your subsequent replies certainly scream flame-bait. The question you ask is very very basic to even the student-pilot level, let alone a private pilot level. It's something that's covered in any private pilot manual, and certainly in your commercial "far/aim" reprint.

Your responses calling JAFI an idiot are laughable. I don't know him or her personally, but clearly the person is no idiot. Further, he or she takes time to respond on this site and provide some very valueable insight from a regular employee of the Administration. You're fortunate to have the input, and not too smart to mouth off about it or offend those who would help you.

You really need to lose the avatar depicting an aircraft apparently narrowly missing a building. In our post 09/11 era, it's in poor taste and very inappropriate.

Incidentally, any ground school provides this information; it's very basic.

"Aircraft accident" means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage.

You ask what other types of accidents are there but what are defined under 49 CFR 830.2. The definition of accident as it applies to that subpart are as I've just provided you. There are no other accidents. There are incidents but not accidents; for the purposes of NTSB 830, an accident is clearly defined.

According to the NTSB, you must make immediate notification of an accident that has resulted in serious injury/death to any occupants and/or major damage to the aircraft.

Not exactly. According to NTSB 830, an aircraft accident requires immediate notification, period. Additional reportable items are also cited, but any aircraft accident, defined as provided above, requires immediate notification. The regulation says nothing about "other accidents." You need to read the regulation.

They further state that no other accidents need to be reported unless requested.

The regulation says no such thing. What the regulation does do is specify what constitutes a requirement for immediate notification. Additional pragraphs also clarify what requires a report to be filed, and the conditions and requirements thereof.

You'll note in the following, the language regarding what requires immediate notification, the sentence "An aircraft accident OR any of the following listed incidents..."

§ 830.5 Immediate notification.
The operator of any civil aircraft, or any public aircraft not operated by the Armed Forces or an intelligence agency of the United States, or any foreign aircraft shall immediately, and by the most expeditious means available, notify the nearest National Transportation Safety Board (Board) field office \1\ when:
(a) An aircraft accident or any of the following listed incidents occur:
(1) Flight control system malfunction or failure;
(2) Inability of any required flight crewmember to perform normal flight duties as a result of injury or illness;
(3) Failure of structural components of a turbine engine excluding compressor and turbine blades and vanes;
(4) In-flight fire; or
(5) Aircraft collide in flight.
(6) Damage to property, other than the aircraft, estimated to exceed $25,000 for repair (including materials and labor) or fair market value in the event of total loss, whichever is less.
(7) For large multiengine aircraft (more than 12,500 pounds maximum takeoff weight);
(i) In-flight failure of electrical systems which requires the sustained use of an emergency bus powered by a backup source such as a battery, auxiliary power unit, or air driven generator to retain flight control or essential instruments;
(ii) In-flight failure of hydraulic systems that results in sustained reliance on the sole remaining hydraulic or mechanical system for movement of flight control surfaces;
(iii) Sustained loss of the power or thrust produced by two or more engines; and
(iv) An evacuation of an aircraft in which an emergency egress system is utilized.
(b) An aircraft is overdue and is believed to have been involved in an accident.

 

[JAFI]

Unanswered,

you know enough to quote from NTSB 830 but do not know where to find what an accident is? (As I recall it is just a couple of words from the quote you used). Seems like flame bait to me.

If you are not, then your ground school needs to be observed for quality of instruction and maybe for you a question and answer session with the Safety Program Manager at the FSDO. Just in case there are other gaps in your education.


I do not mind a person who asks a question, I encourage it. It shows signs of intelligence. I do get irritated when some one says something like "Ok you smart people, answer me this" or "give me the answer because I'm too dumb/lazy/etc. to look it up for my self". Just about everyone who has been in this business for more than a couple years has taught some one a bit of airmanship. IMHO they do it because it is important, they love the subject, and they want to.

As for being an Idiot, yes I am. I am not offended. I had the chance to go ATC a long time ago, I was signed up at an Engineering University, I could of married into money (my personal choice but I messed that up too), but I wanted to fly. So after several bad jobs I found one that (it surprises me every two weeks) the pay check comes right on time.


So I get to work with the gambit from some of the most brilliant people I have ever meet to some I just want to slap their mothers for not strangling them at birth. Life goes on.


So are you seeking knowledge (a student, not just a student pilot) or being a pain in the a$$? If you are not a student, you are wasting the time of teachers who can help legitimate students.


My recommendation: If you want quality assistance, ask a quality question. Do your own research first, you may just find the answer you are looking for. If you do not understand a specific reference, post the reference and ask your question. If a student pilot asks what CFR covers pilot certification, I would answer. If a CFI asks the same question, I would have many other questions to ask him/her.


JAFI

P.S. What is a Quality Question? I'll use an old story...

A man drives along a country road, lost. He sees a farmer and stops to ask directions. The man asks "can I get to (name of town) down this road" and points in the direction he is headed. The farmer looks and says "yes". The man drives away and gets lost again but finds his way back to the farmer and says " You told me I could get to (town) by going down this road and I got lost, why did you send me in the wrong direction?" The farmer says " you can get to (town) by going down that road but it is a lot easier to go the other way" and points down the other road.

Ask a better question, get a better answer.

 

[UnAnswerd]

I've been patient in responding to your questions for a while now, but your post here and your subsequent replies certainly scream flame-bait.

I cannot stress enough that the question was totally legitimate. The question arose after reading a textbook, so don't tell me it's something that can be covered in a "private pilot manual". I mean, you think I don't read? You think I don't study? Despite what some on this board would have you believe, I'm actually a reasonably intelligent person. As such a person might do, I asked a question after interpreting some material. If people like you view such actions as "flame bait", then I think that's a personal issue, and has nothing to do with me.

Further, he or she takes time to respond on this site and provide some very valuable insight from a regular employee of the Administration. You're fortunate to have the input, and not too smart to mouth off about it or offend those who would help you.

He or she may be Mother Teresa, but unfortunately I cannot identify such a valuable person through the eyes of a computer screen. All I see is what is typed. In this case, JAFI was accusing me of "seeing how many replies I can get". From my standpoint, I can only associate such comments with idiocy. You claim I'm "fortunate to have the input" am "offending those who help me". What are you kidding me?

You really need to lose the avatar depicting an aircraft apparently narrowly missing a building. In our post 09/11 era, it's in poor taste and very inappropriate.

The avatar depicts an aircraft in an unusual attitude in close proximity to some buildings. It has absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. Though I can understand the resemblance, it's not about 9/11, and therefore do not see any valid reason to change it.

The regulation says nothing about "other accidents." You need to read the regulation.

I already told you, I did read it. Taken directly from the text:

"...an airplane accident resulting in substantial damage must be reported to the nearest NTSB field office immediately".

That quote would lead someone to believe that, an accident NOT resulting in substantial damage, would NOT require immediate notification. I feel I did the smart thing and asked for clarification on this board. Turns out I was just trolling...

 

[TonyC]

JAFI,

Outstanding post. It's unfortunate that UnAnswerd elected to not respond. Hopefully he took the time to read it, and will heed its wisdom.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
avbug,

Yes, you've been patient with him, even when we disagreed on his intentions. I think we're beginning to think alike on this topic.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
UnAnswerd,

Perhaps you should go fly again. Get the CFI to sign your logbook this time. (Do you need a reference to the FARs for that requirement?)

 

[Monkeyfist]

what text are you using? the statement you "quote" is incomplete
read NTSB 830. I have to agree with the other replies

 

[avbug]

I cannot stress enough that the question was totally legitimate. The question arose after reading a textbook, so don't tell me it's something that can be covered in a "private pilot manual". I mean, you think I don't read? You think I don't study? Despite what some on this board would have you believe, I'm actually a reasonably intelligent person. As such a person might do, I asked a question after interpreting some material. If people like you view such actions as "flame bait", then I think that's a personal issue, and has nothing to do with me.

Where most here think you're an idiot, I've defended you. For the last time. You're a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** student pilot, not an instructor, and certainly have not the experience nor the place to instruct those here. You need to shut up and learn, rather than argue with what you are given. Your question has been answered. You asked, and were given, and are ungrateful.

Grow up then come back to seek learning. Add me to the list of those who will have nothing to do with you.

 

[qmaster3]

Not to worry UnAnswerd....Tony C will still be there for support. He loves you so much he dedicated a thread

 

[UnAnswerd]

...and certainly have not the experience nor the place to instruct those here. You need to shut up and learn, rather than argue with what you are given. Your question has been answered. You asked, and were given, and are ungrateful.

Avbug, I would really like to see just one example where I have "instructed" others on this board. That statement is BS. Also, when and where have I argued with information that has been given????????? The only arguing I've been doing thus far is with those who view honest questions as trolling. Lastly, you claim that I am "ungrateful". That is totally false. If I have anything to be ungrateful for, it's the people that have continuously mocked, laughed, taunted, and otherwise dismissed an honest question from a student pilot.

I'm sorry that you will have nothing to do with me. Hopefully you can believe that I never meant to cause such problems. But at the very least, I would like to hear from you, regarding how I have ever been ungrateful for information given.

 

[UnAnswerd]

what text are you using? the statement you "quote" is incomplete

The text is quoted directly from the "Gleims Private Pilot FAA Written Exam" workbook. I'll be the first to state that others have clarified the information for me. But it's an absolute shame that so much negativity will have commenced from the simple action of trying to get a better understanding.