What if USAir merged with American(DOH west?)

[eaglesview]

I'll state whatever I please.



Would that be the court that just allowed an appeal to show no harm?



Here is the quote from you to which I was referring:

"Following your skewed logic, let's say Nicolau had ruled DOH (which staples 2/3 of the AWA list behind the junior active AAA pilot) and then we went irrationally ballistic like the East did. Being only 1/3 of the size of the combined pilot group our attempts to pressure Prater would've fallen on deaf ears and our attempt to get around binding arbitration by changing unions would've failed to garner enough votes. Would we then be able to state as a "fact" that the arbitrator screwed up?"

I merely responded in kind. The was no presumption. Get your arguments straight, and then we'll debate.



You are way off base here. Both APA and ALPA had merger policies, but that did not prevent a rogering of the TWA pilots. Do you realize that ALPA merger policy changed after your debacle. Why do you think that is??:erm:
FWIW, there should be an appeal process to arbitration for exactly this case, IMO. In the event of failure of the appeal, then it's binding.




A neutral noted it, however. You know, an actual pilot. I guess you ran out of bad logic on this one.



Sure, I understand. What you are not willing to concede is that I don't agree that they are all that different. You guys are hanging your hat on the fact that AWA was not technically in BK. You leave our of your quoting of me the small blurb about the govt owning 1/3 of AWA, and perhaps that had something to do with the fact that you were NOT in BK. You conveniently overlook the fact that your contract has always sucked while USAir has been the victim of fellow ALPA airline groups hanging on the very bar they were trying to raise. You leave out the fact that in your myopic mind USAir was on the brink of liquidation, when in FACT they weren't. You leave out the blurb that a 1988 pilot at USAir was in many people's opinions, NOT the bottom pilot at USAir. You leave out the fact that the ruling, almost instantaneously, gave AWA pilots access to international flying, more bases, more diversity, more furlough cushion, and more leverage, while taking those very same things aways from several USAir pilots--a violation of ALPA merger policy. You leave out the fact that USAir east didn't need USAPA. All they really had to do was just never vote successfully on a JCBA. That was their only real misstep, IMO.



You are wrong. ALPA's merger policy wasn't DOH, because certain groups had gotten it removed from the policy manual due to their size and subsequent relatively new DOH. Check your history, and then come back to the fray. It has changed since yours, and will likely change again. The fact that every merger is different is what leads to the bloodbaths, which is exactly the reason WHY the policy needs to be subjective, and the same every time. Your making this very easy.




What does this say? Nothing. That's right nothing. I suppose you thought that you had to say something, when you probably just should have conceded the point.



See, and I think my point was that the East received an unfair shake, just as the TWA pilots did. Proves my point all the more that there needs to be an objective standard of merger policy between ALPA carriers. I really don't care what it. Make it eye color for all I care. Just don't make it subject to interpretation, career expectations, whims, opinions of human beings, etc. I will concede that binding should mean binding, as long as it is fair. There is no such thing as mostly fair, more fair, or less fair. Something is either fair, or it is not. The award was arguably not fair. Whether it was or not should not be up to you or me, but a truly impartial panel of peers. Once that is confirmed, then binding should mean binding. I think that east side has a valid argument. How about the west side allowing a panel of experts looking at the award today, and judging its fairness. THEN the east giving up all recourse to anything but Nic. I mean, if you are so sure you are right, it should pass the sniff test from a panel of peers, right? Of course it's not, because the west continues behind their only veil of fairness: two words-binding arbitration.



Again, pretty much nothing said here. My "bias" is WHAT is right, not WHO is right.

Nuff said

Well said, unfortunatly your good logic will fall on deaf ears. The east are not good losers, and they did lose as the nic is way in the west favor, and the west are horrible winners. Have you heard one west guy say wow I can go from doing turns in the dessert to doing turns in Europe thanks to nic?? No they will never admit that. And then they use this lame 517 crap that went away with age 65 anyway. All in all a horrible situation and decision by Nic. If not careful we will soon be able to blame the demise of USAir on all of the pilots behavior and one cooky arbitrator.

 

[Cowboy75]

Well said, unfortunatly your good logic will fall on deaf ears. The east are not good losers, and they did lose as the nic is way in the west favor, and the west are horrible winners. Have you heard one west guy say wow I can go from doing turns in the dessert to doing turns in Europe thanks to nic?? No they will never admit that. And then they use this lame 517 crap that went away with age 65 anyway. All in all a horrible situation and decision by Nic. If not careful we will soon be able to blame the demise of USAir on all of the pilots behavior and one cooky arbitrator.

Spoken like a true USAP cheerleader. Want to borrow those Pom Poms from St Nic? As far as Europe is concerned, been there, done that. Too many liberals over there for my liking.

Is that turns in the desert or dessert?

 

[BeCareful!]

We get it. It's sucked to be an Airways pilot for a long, long time. It wasn't AWA's fault. Stop trying to take out 20 years of frustration on a pilot group that had nothing to do with it. At this point it's all about emotion. Ego and pride are ruling your decision making and you guys are collectively making bad decisions. Acknowledge the SLI didn't go your way, make the best of it and move forward. Nothing USAPA is doing is helping you guys get past this. The only consistency is you guys keep suing, you keep losing and the lawyers are getting richer. Let it go.

Caveman,

Wow, that's some interesting fiction. It certainly didn't suck to be at US Airways when we were hired. In fact, there were several thankful AWA pilots in my class. Our wages were better, as were our working conditions. We had 400 Airbus' on order. Some of our work rules are still better, (called mommy to be released lately?) ALPA somehow missed out on giving it all away! In your own active imagination, AWA has been THE place to work since its time began. Cute idea, but not in line with actual facts.

Furthermore, I believe it's your side that's doing the suing. We were the defendants, remember? That's why we had to appeal your hometown judge's "ruling." And what's this about losing? Judge Wake is about to be told by the higher court to dismiss your last "victory."

Time has a way of filtering out the BS. As I've pointed out, there's quite a bit of it in your post. Stay tuned.

 

[BeCareful!]

As far as Europe is concerned, been there, done that. Too many liberals over there for my liking.

Well then, Cowboy, just look at the C&R's. They preserve everything you had at AWA, and they even give your 1799 other westerlies the option to fly to Europe....something they never had before.

As an added bonus, NONE of your pilots would be furloughed right now if USAPA's list and C&R's were in place. Too bad more of your guys don't actually care about the list from top to bottom.

 

[Bringupthebird]

So then DOH for bidding schedules, vacation, travel, and just about everything else in the industry is also not fair. Why do we even have a seniority system?

Integration requires special consideration beyond the seniority of an unmerged airline. The west is not being added to the east list. It is a combination to form an entirely new list. But of course you know that.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Well then, Cowboy, just look at the C&R's. They preserve everything you had at AWA, and they even give your 1799 other westerlies the option to fly to Europe....something they never had before.

As an added bonus, NONE of your pilots would be furloughed right now if USAPA's list and C&R's were in place. Too bad more of your guys don't actually care about the list from top to bottom.

And all 890 F/O's get to wait 7-10 years to upgrade, when many were already captains and the rest were 1-4 years from holding the left seat. Under Nic the average east F/O has to wait 1.5 years to upgrade.

Yeah, sell that to them. You can keep europe on $25 a day.

 

[TWA Dude]

I'll state whatever I please.

You're right, you can state your opinion as fact if you please. My mistake in trying to have a lucid discussion with you.

Both APA and ALPA had merger policies, but that did not prevent a rogering of the TWA pilots.

Um, let's see. ALPA's merger policy involves negotiation, mediation, and arbitration if necessary. APA's merger policy is the APA gets to decide. Guess both policies make perfect sense to you.

FWIW, there should be an appeal process to arbitration for exactly this case, IMO. In the event of failure of the appeal, then it's binding.

So what you're saying is if you don't like one arbitrator's list you should be able to ask another. That's kind of reasonable. Problem is it's too late for US/AWA since there's no more AWA merger committee. I think Delta/NW had the best idea by having a three-arbitrator panel. Look for the same with UA/CO.

I will concede that binding should mean binding, as long as it is fair.

Are you sure you're not a USAPA official because that sure sounds like USAPA logic. Binding means binding even if one side doesn't like it. Otherwise, it isn't binding. The East agreed to binding arbitration. Rationalize all you like but that's why it ended up in court and will again.

 

[Cowboy75]

Well then, Cowboy, just look at the C&R's. They preserve everything you had at AWA, and they even give your 1799 other westerlies the option to fly to Europe....something they never had before.

As an added bonus, NONE of your pilots would be furloughed right now if USAPA's list and C&R's were in place. Too bad more of your guys don't actually care about the list from top to bottom.

Did you get a FI induced vacation? If you did, Be Careful what you say.

Anyway, welcome back.....

 

[BeCareful!]

Did you get a FI induced vacation? If you did, Be Careful what you say.

Anyway, welcome back.....

Thanks Cowboy75,

Yes, they took me off for using a word, properly, that is still being used improperly here from what I've seen upon my return. Guess I also reported a post but then couldn't resist quoting the post. Well, anyway....thanks.

 

[BeCareful!]

Nic was an arbitrator chosen by your side and we agreed to comply with the results. There will be no end of the argument until we frustrate USAPA so much with endless lawsuits that they jump on the slide an exit this property.

Buh Bye

Actually, the party that agreed to Nic is long gone. With luck, time, and a lot of thankless hard work on your behalf, I hope to see the day when you appreciate the benefits of independent representation.

For the rest of your post....well, thanks for your honesty!