What happened to our "profession"???

[HA25]

Posit&hold; You were not getting an education, you were developing a skill, a pilot is a skilled worker, no formal education is required, only gov't certificates.

You really need some help man.. you keep drinking that ATA generated Koolaid..

Me, I consider the 2 months of 8+ hours a day training, reading, and studying for one of my 4 Type ratings on the MD-11 equal or more work than a whole semester of U in my major "Finance".. All crammed into 2 months.

Call it what you want.. it's "education"

 

[Scrapdog]

You can teach anyone to litigate and perform hand surgery. Just like you could teach anyone to fly an airplane given enough time. It's the experience that dictates how much we should be paid. But now, experience is worth less and less, and it shouldn't be.

Jesus yip, get a clue!!!!!!!! Remove the crust from your eyes for god's sakes. Teach anyone to perform hand surgery? Are you f**king kidding me? Surgeons (and especially specilialists like plastic/cardivascular, etc..) are so skilled it's beyond belief. By all accounts, you CAN NOT teach everyone to be a surgeon, much less a specialist like a hand surgeon. Many, many folks drop out of surgery residency and go on to easier residencies everyday. And before you tell me that's not true...I have multiple family members in the medical profession in different facets.

Now flying an ILS (as you stated) is retardedly easy. A baboon can shoot an ILS. Comparing shooting an ILS and hand surgery is not even in the funny category, it's just ignorant.

Yip - wake up, it's 2007 dude. I realize in your hay day in 1965 you didn't need a degree. Today, you do.

 

[PositionandHold]

Actually, that was me. Not Yip.

And I think you missed the overall point of what I was trying to say. I wasn't quite being as literal as you've taken it.

 

[Scrapdog]

Actually, that was me. Not Yip.

And I think you missed the overall point of what I was trying to say. I wasn't quite being as literal as you've taken it.

Wow, I guess I did - so, exactly what are you trying to say? 100K in today's world is not good money - as a matter of fact, it's marginal at best, especially if your spouse can't work (as most airline folks with kids can't). A family of 4 on 100K is very average.

And Yip - I sincerely apologize...my bad.

 

[Scrapdog]

Actually, that was me. Not Yip.

And I think you missed the overall point of what I was trying to say. I wasn't quite being as literal as you've taken it.

deleted - multiple post

 

[PositionandHold]

Wow, I guess I did - so, exactly what are you trying to say? 100K in today's world is not good money - as a matter of fact, it's marginal at best, especially if your spouse can't work (as most airline folks with kids can't). A family of 4 on 100K is very average.

And Yip - I sincerely apologize...my bad.

Um.. re-read my posts, dude. I am not disagreeing with you. I agree with you 100%. I think you need to start from the top of the discussion, because you're mixing everything up. Or just read more carefully.

 

[pilotyip]

100K is good money in the US. 86K in upper 20%, 115K is upper 15%, 151K is upper 5%, Dept of Labour figures 2004 latest I could find. I have never made 100K in my life. So my view of the world may be different, you all welcome to your views, that is the American way, I am happy with mine.

 

[HA25]

100K is good money in the US. 86K in upper 20%, 115K is upper 15%, 151K is upper 5%, Dept of Labour figures 2004 latest I could find. I have never made 100K in my life. So my view of the world may be different, you all welcome to your views, that is the American way, I am happy with mine.

now look what you've done YIP.. you've got me and Scrapdog agreeing one something!

$100K/yr in most cities in the US for a family of 4, with college to save for, and mortgages, car payments, insurance, retirement to save for and any money left over for the anniversary dinner or kids birthday party is simply NOT ENOUGH.. trust me, I'm trying to do it.

 

[PositionandHold]

100K is nothing these days, unless you're single.

 

[Freedom]

pilotyip is now singing the Management Line; because he is Management!

Posit&hold; You were not getting an education, you were developing a skill, a pilot is a skilled worker, no formal education is required, only gov't certificates. Really any one with a certain level or skill or desire can become a pilot. A Doctor is knowledge worker, with a formal education requirement, you might be able to be a Doctor, but not everyone can become a doctor. If you want to be a lawyer, go to Law School, but you elected to be a pilot, do not compare yourself with other people career choices. Enjoy being one of luckiest guys in the world, if you are truly doing something you love, your lawyer friends are jealous of you. Every day guys quit their office jobs to become pilots because it beats the heck out of the cube. "Fly because you like, you know the rest (tag line). BTW the market determines your worth.

Trying to define one Professional (Doctor/Lawyer) as a "Knowledge Worker" and another Professional (Pilot) as a "Skilled Worker," is just yippilot's attempt to keep down the cost of doing business in his business. Yippilot has crossed the Line Pilot line to Management. A sure sign of this is when one only thinks of themselves. Maybe you were able to live frugally all the years on less than 100K Mr. pilotyip. But some of us don't want our families living in the slum of Ypsilanti, and do want to help our kids while they are in college. As a Professional Pilot, I will use my Intelligence to do whatever is necessary and legal to maximize my earning potential for the benefit of my family.

The reason that Doctors and Lawyers are able to maintain such a higher standard of living than Professional Pilots has everything to do with Extortion, and nothing to do with Supply and Demand. Doctors hold your Health over your head; what is more important than your health? Lawyers in general, manipulate the rules of Society; what is more important than civilization?

Pilots on the otherhand are a dime a dozen, primarily because so many little boys once had dreams of being a Pilot. Just like Actors are often taken advantage of on the "Casting Couch," Management tries to exploit the fact that we like what we do; in fact, have dreamed of doing in many cases since Childhood.

Anytime there is a good possibility of exploitation, protection is a wise asset to obtain. And there in rests the single most important reason that Pilots need Unions; to protect them from Greedy Management. But as useful as Unions can be to Pilots, they are not an absolute line of defense. Certain forces beyond their control can negatively affect even their ability to protect us. One of the biggest outside forces of recent years (excluding 9/11) has been the introduction of the Regional Jet. This economic tool has been abused by Management to undermine existing Good Contracts at Mainline Carriers, by farming the work out to lower cost structure Regional Partners, thereby significantly reducing the leverage available to the Pilot Negotiators at the Mainlines.

Anyone that has followed this industry for any length of time knows that when the Majors are Hiring Strong, it negatively affects the cost structure of the rest of the aviation industry, as Pilots jump ship for their Childhood Dreams.

Having said all this, the only tool available to us, since we do not have the Extortion tools of Doctors and Lawyers, is to Stand Together as One, in Solidarity, against the forces of Greed in Management. It is not a perfect solution, but it is the best one available to us, to retain the greatest amount of leverage in our quest to be Maximize our Compensation, doing what we love to do. And what is wrong with that. We are simply leveling the playing field. One Pilot standing alone has little Power to negotiate. A large Group of Pilots standing together has significantly Greater Power, to maximize compensation, given the present economic conditions.

Some pure Supply and Demand Management types view Union backed tactics as Extortion. I say, if Doctors and Lawyers can do it, then as a Union Pilot, I am in good company.

Freedom is NOT Free.