what happened at ASA on an ATR tonight?

[ackattacker]

I thought our paddle dudes were called marshallers too but I guess not since it's not a 121 airline...I can't wait until I don't have to clear my wings anymore, and can just blast ahead trusting these obviously exceptional rampers you guys are always speaking so highly of./sarcarsm off

Seriously, if the rampers suck so bad would that not be more of a reason to have your head on a swivel outside the cockpit?? This isn't a 747 we're talking about, what's the wingspan on an atr, 45 feet?

The wingspan of an ATR-72 is nearly 90 feet. There are many parts of the aircraft that are simply not visible from the cockpit. You cannot see most of the propellers, you cannot see the gear, you cannot see the tail, you cannot actually even see the wingtip (you can see the leading edge, but there is an aileron horn which sticks out beyond what you can see). Additionally, the side windows are not heated or defogged so in certain enviromental conditions they become essentially opaque. Unlike certain jet aircraft, there is no way to open any of the windows on an ATR. It's easy to sit in your chair and blame to crew for not being more vigilant, but unless you were there you don't know what they could see or couldn't.

The bottom of the wing is over 10 feet off the ground, and the refueling port is located on the right wing outboard of the engine. It is common for ground equipment such as a refuelling ladder to be prepositioned inside the wingspan of the aircraft. It is very difficult to judge whether it's too close from inside the cockpit. That's why there are marshallers.

 

[BCpilot81]

I do not think that it is valid for people outside of the domicile to throw stones at anyone. Let alone the crew. Simply because they are not in a position where they have to deal with it daily. Even worse the ATR crews do it so many more times daily because of the trips they are assigned and the amount of time they spend on the ramps. But those arm chair private pilots or temp. cert. flight instructors out there would make themselves above all else with casting dispersions on the PIC or "crew" as having sole responsibility of the aircraft. Which is not an incorrect statement, but at the same time it is not 100% true or realistic. Thank God that noone was hurt.

 

[JettBoii]

I am surprised it does not happen more; not with just the ATR but the CRJ also especially on D concourse with all of the creative parking that we have to do. At least nobody was hurt.

 

[~~~^~~~]

JettBoii - you are right. At some point you have to just look at the operation and say "this is nuts."

Our Passengers, Pilots and Rampers really work in a hazardous environment that requires 100% attention. Especially when the weather gets bad and the visibility is reduced. Then you consider ASA's employees are the lowest paid, most over worked, employees on the airport.

For the pilots who want to come to ASA, get their time and move on - this should serve as a lesson, that this place can get you. We may not get paid anything, crew scheduling may treat us like dogs, but we have more responsibility and operate more legs in a hazardous environment than other flight crews do. It is very serious out there. People could have got hurt in this and we have had folks die on that same ramp.

 

[John Pennekamp]

First of all, thank God nobody was injured. Second of all this is a shining example how the "leadership" at ASA will step over a dollar to grab a dime. This could probably been prevented by having better quality rampers or at least better training but this little episode will no doubt cost alot of $$$. For what the damaged blades will cost to replace, the prop hub and possibly the engine RGB having to be inspected (ie the engine coming off depending on the severity of the prop strike) we could have some descent folks on the ramp. In reality though ASA doesn't care about quality people on the ramp because they'd have to come off the coin a bit. Then BA might not get another huge stock option and maybe even get a scolding from uncle Jerry for cost being up. Clowns!!

The sad thing is that this is covered under insurance and won't cost ASA a dime. Threy learn nothing except those d@am pilots screwed stuff up again. Let's put out a threatening memo!

 

[G2T]

I might get flamed for ignorance here because I don't fly into atl, but that's fine, here's my question: Isn't there a safety zone where there is not supposed to be any ground equipment to prevent this exact type of incident? Even in PHL where the rampers can't be any better than atl we have this. If there is stuff inside the line, you stop and wait until it is moved. Regardless of whether you can see the wingtip or prop, you should be able to see that there might me a problem with equipment in the way as you are pulling in. I'm not blaming the crew, you should theoretically be able to trust the wands, but in the end it is all about C.Y.A.

 

[atrdriver]

I thought our paddle dudes were called marshallers too but I guess not since it's not a 121 airline...I can't wait until I don't have to clear my wings anymore, and can just blast ahead trusting these obviously exceptional rampers you guys are always speaking so highly of./sarcarsm off

Seriously, if the rampers suck so bad would that not be more of a reason to have your head on a swivel outside the cockpit?? This isn't a 747 we're talking about, what's the wingspan on an atr, 45 feet?

No, it's 89 feet. And the pilots can't see the bottom of the prop arc from the cockpit. That's why we have wingwalkers. Yes, the FO looks out as much as he can, but if the wingwalker is saying go, then you have to assume that it is clear.

 

[Medeco]

I might get flamed for ignorance here because I don't fly into atl, but that's fine, here's my question: Isn't there a safety zone where there is not supposed to be any ground equipment to prevent this exact type of incident?

Yes, there is safety zone in most areas, but the spots that the ATR park do not have a red zone that is painted on the ground.

I dont know which spot this happened on, but there is all kinds of reasons why the pilots could have missed it.

This just reinforces that the captain should stop everytime the lead is looking in some other direction. I once flew with one who stopped about 8 times while pulling in to this spot. He also refused to move the airplane after pushback if we were not saluted to show the area is clear. This is exactly what all crews should do in ATL since we operate in such a high density enviroment, and very tight spaces.

Medeco

 

[John Pennekamp]

Yes, there is safety zone in most areas, but the spots that the ATR park do not have a red zone that is painted on the ground.

I dont know which spot this happened on, but there is all kinds of reasons why the pilots could have missed it.

This just reinforces that the captain should stop everytime the lead is looking in some other direction. I once flew with one who stopped about 8 times while pulling in to this spot. He also refused to move the airplane after pushback if we were not saluted to show the area is clear. This is exactly what all crews should do in ATL since we operate in such a high density enviroment, and very tight spaces.

Medeco

Yep. Too many captains have allowed themselves to get caught up in the hype to improve our performance, and are letting themselves become rushed. If the marshaller's not looking at his wingwalkers stop. Then he'll get pissed, throw his wands on the ground like usual, and you'll get a supervisor who knows what he's doing.

 

[JettBoii]

I was watching one of our ATR's parked in "Hotel Mode?" on D the other day when they released the prop brake; wow. No warning at all; no slow spin up just an immediate high RPM. I am surprised that no one albeit ramp personnel or a lost passenger has inaderently wondered into the area when that monster has come alive. Litigation city.

I think ASA inherited a terrible ramp design! It was built for large fuselage aircraft that "require" a jetbridge; Eastern. I cannot see it ever being changed because of the obvious expense and logistics of adding that type of equipment to the ramps we operative at. XJT has a pretty slick set up at IAH; wish we had something like that. Jetbridges; ground power and air.

Ramp times seem a little better; did not have to wait much at all last week on boarding, loading, pushing back or even getting parked. Maybe getting the ramper FTP's filled has helped out or we just got lucky!

Is Hotel Mode what it is called when the prop brake is engaged with the turbine running?

Good Flying

 

[JimGlasair3]

I was watching one of our ATR's parked in "Hotel Mode?" on D the other day when they released the prop brake; wow. No warning at all; no slow spin up just an immediate high RPM. I am surprised that no one albeit ramp personnel or a lost passenger has inaderently wondered into the area when that monster has come alive. Litigation city.

I think ASA inherited a terrible ramp design! It was built for large fuselage aircraft that "require" a jetbridge; Eastern. Is Hotel Mode what it is called when the prop brake is engaged with the turbine running?

Good Flying

The other day on "D," one of our ATR's had a mechanical failure of the prop brake, and the prop let loose, when it wasn't supposed to. The immediate action is to shut down the engine. The prop isn't supposed to turn until clear of the ramp. This may or may not have been what you saw. These airplanes are suffering major mechanical problems on nearly every leg, and are probably near the end of their useful life. As far as the incident airplane is concerned, I wouldn't cry over tearing that engine down anyway. I had the incident airplane just two legs prior, wrote up the engine for torque surges in excess of 5%. I swapped airplanes. I don't know what maintenance did to clear the write up, but it was flying again in less than an hour.

Not sure about the C-ramp, but D is overcrowded with equipment, and there are no safety zones painted. Most of the airplanes are parked two deep at the same gate. In fact, a number of the line-up lines have been changed, without re-painting. Oh yea, it was dark and raining, so the lines wouldn't have been visible anyway. It has been an accident waiting to happen. Negligence on management's part, in my opinion.

While the FO had a basic responsibility to look out for obvious hazards, on the right side, it is very difficult to see if the airplane is clear of equipment.

"Hotel mode" is when the #2 engine is running with the prop brake engaged.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

When I flew the ATR, we were parked at the Top of C Concourse, when we had that crazy ass pull in parking up on the railings. Anyway, we were in hotel, and the Prop Brake Warning went off. I looked over my shoulder to see 2 rampers standing in front of the prop area. They wouldn't have been hit by it, but I guarentee that 2 guys would have needed new pairs of shorts if that thing had actually let go.

Stay the hell away from those engines when it's in hotel mode, I don't trust them enough to get near them.

 

[atrdriver]

These airplanes are suffering major mechanical problems on nearly every leg, and are probably near the end of their useful life.

Our oldest ATR is 13 years old. Hardly close to the end of their useful life. We have problems like this every 8 or 9 months when maint quits babying them. After a while they get sick of having them broke and they will start taking care of them for a few months, and the cycle will repeat. During the 7 years I was on the ATR it had a better dispatch rate than the jet did.

 

[Huck]

In 1000 hours I had the thing come out of hotel mode twice on its own....

 

[DrunkIrishman]

I have parked in spots where I thought things would get in the way, but through constant vigilance on the wing walker and my wing we cleared them. We simply cannot tell from the cockpit, which is why we use wing walkers. The crew will probably get to participate in a Critical Incident Review, but should not be disciplined for following company policy.

As for arm chair quarterbacks like Vandal, come fly with me sometime and I guarentee I can point out a few things you do wrong in the flight too. Show some support for your fellow pilots.

 

[Redan]

All Hail Mr. Vandal

I think our Mr. Vandal must be one of those vastly superior military pukes. He11, he's got a thousand hours! Must be nice to be able to sit up on a pedestal in judgement of other pilots.

Obviously our Mr. Vandal has no concept of the Atlanta ramp operation. I would like to see how much he'd enjoy parking that Herky Bird on our ramp three plus times a day during the multiple fourteen plus hour days per week enjoyed by our crews...in all weather day and night. He only gets to have two pilots, no engineer, no crew chief or observers. And he has to use our ground crews, many of whom would rather be anywhere than here. You see Mr. Vandal, this is not one of your orderly pristine military fields with accountable ground personnel. This is Atlanta, my friend. The ramp looks like a bomb went off with equipment scattered everywhere. Many spots aren't marked and involve maneuvering that ATR beast through an obstacle course, seldom just straight in...it's dark and you can't see whether you're clear...most airliners have considerably less visibility than a Herc. That's why we have to trust the ground crews for better or worse.

My advice to judgemental pilots: be very very careful my brother. Because you are setting yourself up to look like a major a$$ when your day comes. And it damm well will come.

 

[Speedtape]

Bottom line--many safety rules are compromised. However, the corporate culture accepts the risk because it's cheaper than a safer alternative! Unfortunately, many pilots contribute and enable this culture to perpetuate.

 

[imacdog]

I have also had wing walkers signalling to stop while the lead marshaller continues to direct us in, blissfully ignorant that our wingtip is about to strike something. Had that been on the left side of the plane, the captain probably wouldn't have seen it and we could have hit something. Atlanta is such a mess that I'm surprised incidents like this don't happen more often.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

I have parked in spots where I thought things would get in the way, but through constant vigilance on the wing walker and my wing we cleared them. We simply cannot tell from the cockpit, which is why we use wing walkers. The crew will probably get to participate in a Critical Incident Review, but should not be disciplined for following company policy.

As for arm chair quarterbacks like Vandal, come fly with me sometime and I guarentee I can point out a few things you do wrong in the flight too. Show some support for your fellow pilots.

Good post.

 

[GreatView]

Is there something special about an ATR that makes this the marshaller's and not the crews fault?

No disrespect Vandal, but if all you have is 1,000hrs flight time, you don't even know how to fly yet.....

Get more experience and then put in your $.02

 

[DGdaPilot]

Come to AE. AMR disabled all of our prop. brakes......they were deemed to be too expensive. Knowing AMR, they're speaking the truth.....penny-pinchin' bastards.