what happened at ASA on an ATR tonight?

[ackattacker]

I thought our paddle dudes were called marshallers too but I guess not since it's not a 121 airline...I can't wait until I don't have to clear my wings anymore, and can just blast ahead trusting these obviously exceptional rampers you guys are always speaking so highly of./sarcarsm off

Seriously, if the rampers suck so bad would that not be more of a reason to have your head on a swivel outside the cockpit?? This isn't a 747 we're talking about, what's the wingspan on an atr, 45 feet?

The wingspan of an ATR-72 is nearly 90 feet. There are many parts of the aircraft that are simply not visible from the cockpit. You cannot see most of the propellers, you cannot see the gear, you cannot see the tail, you cannot actually even see the wingtip (you can see the leading edge, but there is an aileron horn which sticks out beyond what you can see). Additionally, the side windows are not heated or defogged so in certain enviromental conditions they become essentially opaque. Unlike certain jet aircraft, there is no way to open any of the windows on an ATR. It's easy to sit in your chair and blame to crew for not being more vigilant, but unless you were there you don't know what they could see or couldn't.

The bottom of the wing is over 10 feet off the ground, and the refueling port is located on the right wing outboard of the engine. It is common for ground equipment such as a refuelling ladder to be prepositioned inside the wingspan of the aircraft. It is very difficult to judge whether it's too close from inside the cockpit. That's why there are marshallers.

 

[BCpilot81]

I do not think that it is valid for people outside of the domicile to throw stones at anyone. Let alone the crew. Simply because they are not in a position where they have to deal with it daily. Even worse the ATR crews do it so many more times daily because of the trips they are assigned and the amount of time they spend on the ramps. But those arm chair private pilots or temp. cert. flight instructors out there would make themselves above all else with casting dispersions on the PIC or "crew" as having sole responsibility of the aircraft. Which is not an incorrect statement, but at the same time it is not 100% true or realistic. Thank God that noone was hurt.

 

[JettBoii]

I am surprised it does not happen more; not with just the ATR but the CRJ also especially on D concourse with all of the creative parking that we have to do. At least nobody was hurt.

 

[~~~^~~~]

JettBoii - you are right. At some point you have to just look at the operation and say "this is nuts."

Our Passengers, Pilots and Rampers really work in a hazardous environment that requires 100% attention. Especially when the weather gets bad and the visibility is reduced. Then you consider ASA's employees are the lowest paid, most over worked, employees on the airport.

For the pilots who want to come to ASA, get their time and move on - this should serve as a lesson, that this place can get you. We may not get paid anything, crew scheduling may treat us like dogs, but we have more responsibility and operate more legs in a hazardous environment than other flight crews do. It is very serious out there. People could have got hurt in this and we have had folks die on that same ramp.

 

[John Pennekamp]

First of all, thank God nobody was injured. Second of all this is a shining example how the "leadership" at ASA will step over a dollar to grab a dime. This could probably been prevented by having better quality rampers or at least better training but this little episode will no doubt cost alot of $$$. For what the damaged blades will cost to replace, the prop hub and possibly the engine RGB having to be inspected (ie the engine coming off depending on the severity of the prop strike) we could have some descent folks on the ramp. In reality though ASA doesn't care about quality people on the ramp because they'd have to come off the coin a bit. Then BA might not get another huge stock option and maybe even get a scolding from uncle Jerry for cost being up. Clowns!!

The sad thing is that this is covered under insurance and won't cost ASA a dime. Threy learn nothing except those d@am pilots screwed stuff up again. Let's put out a threatening memo!

 

[G2T]

I might get flamed for ignorance here because I don't fly into atl, but that's fine, here's my question: Isn't there a safety zone where there is not supposed to be any ground equipment to prevent this exact type of incident? Even in PHL where the rampers can't be any better than atl we have this. If there is stuff inside the line, you stop and wait until it is moved. Regardless of whether you can see the wingtip or prop, you should be able to see that there might me a problem with equipment in the way as you are pulling in. I'm not blaming the crew, you should theoretically be able to trust the wands, but in the end it is all about C.Y.A.

 

[atrdriver]

I thought our paddle dudes were called marshallers too but I guess not since it's not a 121 airline...I can't wait until I don't have to clear my wings anymore, and can just blast ahead trusting these obviously exceptional rampers you guys are always speaking so highly of./sarcarsm off

Seriously, if the rampers suck so bad would that not be more of a reason to have your head on a swivel outside the cockpit?? This isn't a 747 we're talking about, what's the wingspan on an atr, 45 feet?

No, it's 89 feet. And the pilots can't see the bottom of the prop arc from the cockpit. That's why we have wingwalkers. Yes, the FO looks out as much as he can, but if the wingwalker is saying go, then you have to assume that it is clear.

 

[Medeco]

I might get flamed for ignorance here because I don't fly into atl, but that's fine, here's my question: Isn't there a safety zone where there is not supposed to be any ground equipment to prevent this exact type of incident?

Yes, there is safety zone in most areas, but the spots that the ATR park do not have a red zone that is painted on the ground.

I dont know which spot this happened on, but there is all kinds of reasons why the pilots could have missed it.

This just reinforces that the captain should stop everytime the lead is looking in some other direction. I once flew with one who stopped about 8 times while pulling in to this spot. He also refused to move the airplane after pushback if we were not saluted to show the area is clear. This is exactly what all crews should do in ATL since we operate in such a high density enviroment, and very tight spaces.

Medeco

 

[John Pennekamp]

Yes, there is safety zone in most areas, but the spots that the ATR park do not have a red zone that is painted on the ground.

I dont know which spot this happened on, but there is all kinds of reasons why the pilots could have missed it.

This just reinforces that the captain should stop everytime the lead is looking in some other direction. I once flew with one who stopped about 8 times while pulling in to this spot. He also refused to move the airplane after pushback if we were not saluted to show the area is clear. This is exactly what all crews should do in ATL since we operate in such a high density enviroment, and very tight spaces.

Medeco

Yep. Too many captains have allowed themselves to get caught up in the hype to improve our performance, and are letting themselves become rushed. If the marshaller's not looking at his wingwalkers stop. Then he'll get pissed, throw his wands on the ground like usual, and you'll get a supervisor who knows what he's doing.

 

[JettBoii]

I was watching one of our ATR's parked in "Hotel Mode?" on D the other day when they released the prop brake; wow. No warning at all; no slow spin up just an immediate high RPM. I am surprised that no one albeit ramp personnel or a lost passenger has inaderently wondered into the area when that monster has come alive. Litigation city.

I think ASA inherited a terrible ramp design! It was built for large fuselage aircraft that "require" a jetbridge; Eastern. I cannot see it ever being changed because of the obvious expense and logistics of adding that type of equipment to the ramps we operative at. XJT has a pretty slick set up at IAH; wish we had something like that. Jetbridges; ground power and air.

Ramp times seem a little better; did not have to wait much at all last week on boarding, loading, pushing back or even getting parked. Maybe getting the ramper FTP's filled has helped out or we just got lucky!

Is Hotel Mode what it is called when the prop brake is engaged with the turbine running?

Good Flying