What does it take to get the Feds attention?

[Rip Vanwinkle]

There's some guy sitting two tables down bragging to his buddy about how he flies VFR through IMC all the time and giving him helpful hints about what to say to controllers. Now, personally, I don't care whether he kills his own dumb self, but what about the guy (say, me, for example) he runs in to and kills? So between fantasies of beating his good ole boy head in to the table, I started to idly wonder..."What DOES it take to get the Feds to check someone?" It's a purely theoretical question...I'm not a rat and I don't know this guy from Adam...but I'm curious nonetheless.

 

[FN FAL]

There's some guy sitting two tables down bragging to his buddy about how he flies VFR through IMC all the time and giving him helpful hints about what to say to controllers. Now, personally, I don't care whether he kills his own dumb self, but what about the guy (say, me, for example) he runs in to and kills? So between fantasies of beating his good ole boy head in to the table, I started to idly wonder..."What DOES it take to get the Feds to check someone?" It's a purely theoretical question...I'm not a rat and I don't know this guy from Adam...but I'm curious nonetheless.

I'd say mind your own business, you probably can't tell what it is you're hearing anyway.

 

[Rip Vanwinkle]

I'd say the same to you.

 

[NW_Pilot]

I agree with FN FAL "mind your own business"

 

[FN FAL]

I'd say the same to you.

You'd say that you would mind your own business?

I say mind your own business for several reasons. First, the feds are going to assume that you don't know what you are hearing and call your story "hear-say". So they have already pre-disposed that you probably don't know what you heard.

Second, who cares? Screw them, Let the both of them wind up in the funny papers. The way I look at it, people like that give me something to read in the morning when I dial in the news on my internet.

 

[Rip Vanwinkle]

Yeah, message received. Any other helpful opinions about how I oughtn't offer an opinion of what people say will receive yet another raised eyebrow and be cheerfully disregarded as glaringly hilarious.

Incidently, for those suffering from reading comprehension problems, it might help to re-read my original post.


Edit: FN FAL: as I said, my concern isn't about this joker killing himself. On the other hand, I spend a lot of time cruising IFR at low altitude in a non-turbo piston, sometimes non-radar. What if, instead of running in to a mountain, this jackhole runs in to me? THEN is it my business? Seems a little late. Anyway, the conversation inspired the question, but as I point out above, I have no intention of narking on anyone, ever, although I wouldn't blame someone if they did in a situation like this (were it possible, which I submit you're probably right about...it's not). Enforcement issues aside, the conversation was quite loud, and I'm 100% certain of what I heard. Other awesome topics included how ADFs are "worthless", VORs are "hard to figure out", why people use anything other than GPS, how to pretend you're instrument rated, how high you can REALLY fly without oxygen, the good ole days of flying for years without any license whatsoever, and assorted other swinging-dick retarded good ole boy bull********************.

Anyway. I obviously failed to communicate very well the first time, so let me try again. My interest is in how FSDOs operate. I.E. when a FSDO decides to "go after" a guy, how do they arrive at this decision? If you like, you can suspect me of being someone planning to get away with something illegal myself, which given the nature of the question would maybe be believable (although I'm not). I don't see where it makes any sense to criticize me based on the premises of the question, though.

 

[Flyerjosh]

There's some guy sitting two tables down bragging to his buddy about how he flies VFR through IMC all the time and giving him helpful hints about what to say to controllers. Now, personally, I don't care whether he kills his own dumb self, but what about the guy (say, me, for example) he runs in to and kills? So between fantasies of beating his good ole boy head in to the table, I started to idly wonder..."What DOES it take to get the Feds to check someone?" It's a purely theoretical question...I'm not a rat and I don't know this guy from Adam...but I'm curious nonetheless.

One thing to keep in mind is that there are certain times when you can legally fly in IMC conditions under Visual Flight Rules... not necessarily prudent or smart, but perfectly legal.

 

[FN FAL]

Yeah, message received. Any other helpful opinions about how I oughtn't offer an opinion of what people say will receive yet another raised eyebrow and be cheerfully disregarded as glaringly hilarious.

Incidently, for those suffering from reading comprehension problems, it might help to re-read my original post.

You know the number to fsdo, give em a call and tell em what you heard. I bet when you get off the phone with them, you could look up the word "chagrin" at merriam-websters and that's what you'll be experiencing.

 

[mcjohn]

One thing to keep in mind is that there are certain times when you can legally fly in IMC conditions under Visual Flight Rules... not necessarily prudent or smart, but perfectly legal.

Care to elaborate? Are you just talking about SVFR?

 

[FN FAL]

Care to elaborate? Are you just talking about SVFR?

You can fly in IMC conditions outside of controlled airspace with no IFR flight plan, so long as the pilot is IFR rated and the aircraft meets IFR requirements. In which case, there is no talking to controllers, unless you just want to tell them "hi!"

 

[leardawg]

I did hear a story a few years back about a FSDO inspector overhearing a conversation between a CFI and his student at a diner. Basically, the CFI was bragging about his low-flying exploits, and giving the student tips while telling him how much of a blast he was going to have when he got his license. The inspector tracked the guy down, and he was called in for a re-check. I can't remember the outcome, but acquaintances told me the guy was a total tool as a student, as well as after he managed to get his CFI ticket.

 

[Lear Wanna Be]

I did hear a story a few years back about a FSDO inspector overhearing a conversation between a CFI and his student at a diner. Basically, the CFI was bragging about his low-flying exploits, and giving the student tips while telling him how much of a blast he was going to have when he got his license. The inspector tracked the guy down, and he was called in for a re-check. I can't remember the outcome, but acquaintances told me the guy was a total tool as a student, as well as after he managed to get his CFI ticket.

Both of them are probably inspectors now.

Around here all of the small 135 operators have it in for one another. Lots of people have worked for more than one of the local operators. Seems they all have the "hotline" number on speed dial. One operator just recently was forced into surrendering their 135 certificate. Dirty rats!!!

 

[Ralgha]

You can fly in IMC conditions outside of controlled airspace with no IFR flight plan, so long as the pilot is IFR rated and the aircraft meets IFR requirements. In which case, there is no talking to controllers, unless you just want to tell them "hi!"

True, but you're definatly not VFR in that case.

 

[FN FAL]

I did hear a story a few years back about a FSDO inspector overhearing a conversation between a CFI and his student at a diner. Basically, the CFI was bragging about his low-flying exploits, and giving the student tips while telling him how much of a blast he was going to have when he got his license. The inspector tracked the guy down, and he was called in for a re-check. I can't remember the outcome, but acquaintances told me the guy was a total tool as a student, as well as after he managed to get his CFI ticket.

If what you are saying is true, that scenario is not a case of "hearsay". The FSDO inspector heard the person saying it. Completely different circumstances.

If FSDO advised me that someone was telling them stories out of school about me and they were unfounded, I'd be speaking with an attorney immediately and pursuing all lawful options available to me.

 

[JAFI]

FAA Safety Hotline:

Safety Hotline
Call our 24-Hour Safety Hotline at (800) 255-1111 to report:

• Maintenance improprieties
• Low-flying aircraft
• Aircraft incidents
• Federal Aviation Regulation (FAR) violations

http://www.faa.gov/safety/

You can leave your name or not, You can ask to be contacted or not, it is up to you. The person at the other end is a Regional Manager for the Hotline program in that region. Each phone call gets a tracking number and the assigned FSDO must investigate and provide a written report to the Regional Manager what they found.

 

[troy]

unless you seen this tool actually bust some reg, I don't think that you should do anything. He might be not telling the truth, "hanger flying" if you will. Undoubtedlly he is telling the truth, but you can't tell. You might give FSDO a heads up what you heard, but they probably won't do much of anything.

The FAA safety hotline might be the best course of action.

 

[FN FAL]

FAA Safety Hotline:

Safety Hotline
Call our 24-Hour Safety Hotline at (800) 255-1111 to report:

• Maintenance improprieties
• Low-flying aircraft
• Aircraft incidents
• Federal Aviation Regulation (FAR) violations

http://www.faa.gov/safety/

You can leave your name or not, You can ask to be contacted or not, it is up to you. The person at the other end is a Regional Manager for the Hotline program in that region. Each phone call gets a tracking number and the assigned FSDO must investigate and provide a written report to the Regional Manager what they found.

It doesn't say what you said on the website, cite a reference please.

 

[FN FAL]

unless you seen this tool actually bust some reg, I don't think that you should do anything. He might be not telling the truth, "hanger flying" if you will. Undoubtedlly he is telling the truth, but you can't tell. You might give FSDO a heads up what you heard, but they probably won't do much of anything.

The FAA safety hotline might be the best course of action.

How can you investigate hearsay? You can't.

"Hello, pilot Johnson?"

"Yes, can I help you?"

"Yea, it's come to our attention that some dude heard you talking to some other dude and we are required to investigate dudes talking and file a dudes talking incident report...were you talking to a dude on such and such a date at such and such a place and time?"

"No."

"Are you sure?"

"Yes."

"Ok, I'll check 'possibly/maybe' on the form and we'll have one of our investigators pull the security camera tapes after getting a subpoena to do so...we'll contact you at a latter date regarding the final disposition of the dudes talking incident report...thank you for your time."

"You're welcome."

 

[NW_Pilot]

How can you investigate hearsay? You can't.

"Hello, pilot Johnson?"

"Yes, can I help you?"

"Yea, it's come to our attention that some dude heard you talking to some other dude and we are required to investigate dudes talking and file a dudes talking incident report...were you talking to a dude on such and such a date at such and such a place and time?"

"No."

"Are you sure?"

"Yes."

"Ok, I'll check 'possibly/maybe' on the form and we'll have one of our investigators pull the security camera tapes after getting a subpoena to do so...we'll contact you at a latter date regarding the final disposition of the dudes talking incident report...thank you for your time."

"Your welcome."

LMFAO ROTF

 

[NW_Pilot]

FAA Safety Hotline:

Safety Hotline
Call our 24-Hour Safety Hotline at (800) 255-1111 to report:

• Maintenance improprieties
• Low-flying aircraft
• Aircraft incidents
• Federal Aviation Regulation (FAR) violations

http://www.faa.gov/safety/

You can leave your name or not, You can ask to be contacted or not, it is up to you. The person at the other end is a Regional Manager for the Hotline program in that region. Each phone call gets a tracking number and the assigned FSDO must investigate and provide a written report to the Regional Manager what they found.

You know by calling an 800 number unless you do it on a pay phone they have your info even if your number in unlisted!

 

[FN FAL]

You know by calling an 800 number unless you do it on a pay phone they have your info even if your number in unlisted!

They'll just take a sample of your voice on the phone then do a voice spectraphic analysis on it. The next time you speak on ATC, a little light will warn them that's you...then they'll know where you live.

 

[NW_Pilot]

They'll just take a sample of your voice on the phone then do a voice spectraphic analysis on it. The next time you speak on ATC, a little light will warn them that's you...then they'll know where you live.

Maby Wells should have said 2014 instead of 1984 hehehehe

 

[JAFI]

It doesn't say what you said on the website, cite a reference please.

Let's see... I went to faa.gov and typed in "Safety Hotline" in the Search Box... Second hit was:

http://www.asy.faa.gov/safety_products/hotline.htm

As far as bugging your phone call....

I'm told if you rap a wet towel or use tin foil around your head and only stand on your right leg, "they" have a harder time reading your mind......

Sorry FN FAL, no reference on this one.....

JAFI

 

[leardawg]

If what you are saying is true, that scenario is not a case of "hearsay". The FSDO inspector heard the person saying it. Completely different circumstances.

If FSDO advised me that someone was telling them stories out of school about me and they were unfounded, I'd be speaking with an attorney immediately and pursuing all lawful options available to me.

It happened (Albany NY area; late 1980s). I don't know if the guy passed or failed his 609 (as it was then called). I've never heard of a situation of someone being called to the carpet because of a statement or conversation overheard by a non-FAA source (hearsay, as you point out). The feds usually want irrefutable evidence and corroborating witnesses for an actual violation or incident, not a conversation of what someone might do or have done. In this case, I would guess they went on the premise that he was giving false and misleading instruction to his student, and thus questioned his competency to excercise his Instructor certificate. I suppose a good lawyer could have fought it, but after all he WAS a CFI!

 

[aussiefly]

Yeah as much as this guy is CFI toolbox I would stay right out of it. It's just as likely upon ringing your local FSDO that they will do nothing about this guy and then next time your up you happen to get a `random' ramp check.

I actually know someone that made a complaint about a 135 operator that he worked for (pencil whipping mx records). And the FAA came in and slapped the 135 outfits hands and fined them. They then went over the records and cited the pilots who had flown the aircraft. He had his license suspended eventually.

Sure, they were doing wrong but who of us can say that we have absolutely never broken a FAR.

IMHO I would prefer to let sleeping dogs lay rather than bring int he FAA and expose myself to litigation.

Anyway thats just my 2 cents.

 

[FN FAL]

It happened (Albany NY area; late 1980s). I don't know if the guy passed or failed his 609 (as it was then called). I've never heard of a situation of someone being called to the carpet because of a statement or conversation overheard by a non-FAA source (hearsay, as you point out). The feds usually want irrefutable evidence and corroborating witnesses for an actual violation or incident, not a conversation of what someone might do or have done. In this case, I would guess they went on the premise that he was giving false and misleading instruction to his student, and thus questioned his competency to excercise his Instructor certificate. I suppose a good lawyer could have fought it, but after all he WAS a CFI!

That makes sense to me.

 

[FN FAL]

Let's see... I went to faa.gov and typed in "Safety Hotline" in the Search Box... Second hit was:

http://www.asy.faa.gov/safety_products/hotline.htm

As far as bugging your phone call....

I'm told if you rap a wet towel or use tin foil around your head and only stand on your right leg, "they" have a harder time reading your mind......

Sorry FN FAL, no reference on this one.....

JAFI

I don't understand the "bugging your phone call" reference, but you do understand that the phone call you make to this number is recorded? You do understand that regarless of whether they would do it or not, that voice spectragraph could be used to make compairisons between voice samples? This is not the same as bugging someone's phone. In additon, you do understand that my reference to voice spectragraph and ATC possessing a monitoring system was humor?

With that said, look at the second link that you provided and notice...

Making Safety A Priority
A 24-Hour Hotline
The FAA Aviation Safety Hotline is available to the aviation community and the general public for reporting time-critical events that may require immediate action.

The Hotline is used to report violations of the Federal Aviation Regulations and:

• Suspected unapproved parts;
• Non-adherence to operational procedures;
• Improper record keeping; and
• Unsafe aviation practices.

I don't think that two dudes talking in an FBO is a...time critical events that may require immediate action.


In addition, notice this section...

Immediate Response
FAA personnel are available 24-hours a day to receive reports. When a report is made, Hotline specialists enter the information in the Safety Hotline Database. A preliminary analysis and technical review is made immediately and one of three actions is taken:

One of the three actions taken and the beauty is that the police are policing themselves:

The report provides insufficient information for action or is determined to be a non-safety issue and is closed.

Once a report is closed it is reviewed by FAA personnel. This review assures information is complete and any action taken was appropriate. In addition, any callers who request a response and provide their name and address receive a written summary of FAA action.

Only people who leave a name and address, get a report. Leave no name and address, you don't even get to know which of the three actions occured. They could just determine after you hang up that this is another unfounded report, write it so and file it after they review it themselves. You don't get squat. In fact, if you don't leave your name and address, you'll never know which of three actions were taken.

Maintain Confidentiality

If a caller requests confidentiality at the time of the initial report their name is withheld and they are protected by the Privacy Act.

Not only are "they" protected by the Privacy Act, so are "they".

If you call and tell them two dudes were talking in an FBO about flying in IMC while IFR and you don't leave your name, they have been left a way out. All they have to do is take the report, mark it as not needing immediate attention due to the fact that there was no "immediate safety issue". Your confidentiality was given in exchange for not giving you a report. You have no proof that they didn't do anything and everybody is happy. At least you got a feel good sensation and they have a paper on file that they need to prove your call was handled and the action was reviewed.

That's what I saw. If you saw different, feel free to elaborate.

Thanks for providing the information, as I learned a lot that was not related to the "two dudes talking" scenario and that is always a good thing. However, based on what the original poster said, I'm thinking an anonomous report on such a subject, will wind up in the "action number three file".

 

[FN FAL]

Having reviewed this FAA website and the other one brings back a memory from two or three years ago and the FAA websites provide an insight as to what happened at our drop zone.

My wife was working manifest and there was a continuous barrage of phone calls from an airport neighbor claiming their children were losing sleep because of nightmares of planes crashing into their house. They lived in an "estate" on the base to final turn for one of the runways. In addition, they also called to complain about the noise of airplanes and people performing "aerobatics" over their house.

Eventually, an FAA inspector showed up and did a ramp check in regards to a phone call made to the FAA. Obviously, there was nothing out of the ordinary going on, so he spent his day watching the operation for nothing.

This drop zone operator runs one of the most professional and squared away operations that I have ever seen. He keeps his planes up, the gear at the D.Z. is maintained meticulously and safety is starts in spring with a well organized safety meeting. Safety is stressed year round, nothing gets past the D.Z. with out his permission and even if you sneak something in, he will let you know where the other drop zones are and ask you to not come back.

Eventually, the complainer sold his house and hopefully moved back to Illinois. They owned one of those gas stations with a fast food restaurant built in, so it was funny that they would be complaining to the feds about noise "pollution".

I think that if the feds were to be kept busy physically investigating every anonymous tip made to the hot line, they would not be able to devote time and effort to cases that need real attention.

 

[siucavflight]

If you have his name, and you call someone you know at the FSDO and tell them what you have heard, and you are someone whom they believe, I gaurntee you that they will keep a close watch on this guy and his tail number. Dont sit back and mind your own business, I dont care if he kills himself, but dont take me down with you. Last week I got a traffic call out, "VFR traffic at your 10 3 miles same altitude opposite direction." Now I was in IMC came down from 10,000 solid, and now I was at 5,000 solid all the way down, and bottoms were being reported at 1500, I told the controller that I was solid, and that this guy was VFR in IMC, and that he is not being safe, they said that they were going to follow his target and see where he landed. I hope they found the prick and pulled his certificate, to keep me away from him they gave me a "climb to 7,000 best rate"

 

[FN FAL]

If you have his name, and you call someone you know at the FSDO and tell them what you have heard, and you are someone whom they believe, I gaurntee you that they will keep a close watch on this guy and his tail number. Dont sit back and mind your own business, I dont care if he kills himself, but dont take me down with you. Last week I got a traffic call out, "VFR traffic at your 10 3 miles same altitude opposite direction." Now I was in IMC came down from 10,000 solid, and now I was at 5,000 solid all the way down, and bottoms were being reported at 1500, I told the controller that I was solid, and that this guy was VFR in IMC, and that he is not being safe, they said that they were going to follow his target and see where he landed. I hope they found the prick and pulled his certificate, to keep me away from him they gave me a "climb to 7,000 best rate"

So, If the allegation is made by the first person, it automatically makes the second person guilty?