what do you think? NJA

[hotwing]

questions for you NETJETERS! Please fill me in...

Yes that is an accurate depiction of the current rumour... however the part you left out about 10% paycuts...

I can confirm that isnt true. we are committed to keeping the pay just like it is now... about 50% of ProPilot salary survey averages ... so don't worry.

I am curious -- what do you think the pay will be? 50% of propilot salary? Is that just 50% of the listed propilot survey? That is low, isn't it?


hmmm.... one other question --- if you were considering coming over there but, you have the potential to go to major corporation that has a nice flight department with retirement and a pretty good schedule, what would you do?

I am wanting to know what you think that salaries are going to be like and what the schedules are going to be?

 

[xpdriver]

I can tell you that our schedules are probably going tp be 7/7 for ever want it and some kind of 15 or 16 or 17 day schedule to fill in the gaps.. Or pay, well that is the big question!! Nobody knows,and don't let anybody tell you, well this guy told me,crap....I can tell you it will be better than we have now..sorry about the lack of info. As for the corporate job, you need to talk to as many guys as you can and decide what is the best thing for your family(longterm). In my opinion, this place is going to be here a long time. Now the life style at nja is different than most corporate outfits...your schedule changes alot, and you have to get early alot. sometimes you do 2 legs and sometimes 6. alot of 12 to 14 hour days. But the crews are great and the company treats you good. I forgot all of your questions. I hope this helps alittle. Good luck

 

[yosemite]

Having flown corporate for 15 years prior to hiring on at NetJets, I can tell you about two things that make it the job for me even if I have to put up with being on F/O pay for a while.

The first is the schedule... I _have_ one. I don't live on a cell phone or have to hide from my employers phone calls any more when I want a night off. I know what days I will be working and what days I will be off for the whole upcoming month, at least two weeks in advance and I get a forecast of that schedule 6 weeks in advance. And if the info we have on the new contract is true, we will know our week on/off schedule 6 months in advance. A lot of guys working there will tell you that they do have to live on a beeper or phone, but that is during one of their SCHEDULED days on. My opinion of that is that when I'm "on", I'm on... call me whenever and if I can fly, I will. Cough, cough, sniffle... ;^)

The second thing is stability. This company is supported by one of the strongest financial networks in the world and it is not going away anytime soon. It is a company with which I can plan my retirement. And regardless of the strife between the company and the union membership over the contract, almost all of us think it is a very good company to work for. Personally, I know that when the chips are down, they come to bat for their employee in a big time way.

One thing I see with the growth of fractionals and their card-share programs is that it is going to make it tougher for a corporate aviation department to justify costs when compared. Fractional flying fits right into the average 200 hours per year that most private owners fly. It's expensive, for sure, but in the long run it is cheaper for the owner than outright ownership of an entire aircraft. With the airlines gravitating toward cheap fair/cattle car transportation for the masses, you can bet the first & business class pax will be looking toward using corporate air travel much more than in the past. This should mean a good future for most large departments, and the fractional business. You have to decide which is likely to provide you with the best opportunity for long term employment and financial potential. Is it your corporate 100/500 company or a BERKSHIRE/HATHAWAY company?

Okay, some other opinions on your questions. And remember the old adage about opinions before you give any weight to this.

Salary... Haven't seen the ProPilot survey yet but here's my WAG. We will see an offer with 5th year captains pay around $90k. I expect F/O pay to run about 2/3 of that. We should also get some sort of retro pay check, but I don't think it'll be large. Rumor = $60k. Finally, the sense I get is that the membership will vote this proposal down regardless of how great the other stuff in the contract is. I don't think anything less than 6 figures at year 5 will pass.

Schedules... XPdriver pretty much said it. Word is 7 on/ 7 off for anyone who wants it, bid in 6 month increments. Other schedule will be for the fill-ins and guys who want to work more or less than the standard 192 days per year, for more or less money, with a 15 day notice.

The other stuff in the contract will make you wet yourself. Enhanced retirement, employment protections, insurance, legal aid/coverage, etc.. It will be a great one if we pass it.

 

[banned username 2]

One thing I see with the growth of fractionals and their card-share programs is that it is going to make it tougher for a corporate aviation department to justify costs when compared. Fractional flying fits right into the average 200 hours per year that most private owners fly. It's expensive, for sure, but in the long run it is cheaper for the owner than outright ownership of an entire aircraft.

Wow, the misinformed....

First off the "Card-Share" program offers a Citation Ultra at something like $5,500 per hour and a G-V at something like $16,000 per hour... ANYONE can run those planes cheaper than that...

Second off, the "Average Corporate Owner" flies 410 hours per year, per airplane according to NBAA...

This year we compared our ~$20M annual budget to doing the same flying with NetJets... the NetJets cost was close to $80M per year (NetJets supplied the numbers)... So as far as NetJets being cheaper, don't fool yourself... NetJets might work for the 100-250 hour per year flyer, or someone with a lot of dead heads, but for the "average Corporate User" outright ownership is still cheaper...

I think it's funny you guys keep spouting that you are a "Berkshire/Hathaway company", but Uncle Warren is sure keeping a tight grip on his wallet... Remember, the man didn't get rich by throwing his money aroound... Read some of his books and you'll realize how cheap he really is...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

for the last time...

fractional works on paper for the wealthy person who flies back and forth to PBI and ASE and wants to take thier dog and does not care who picks them up....

this is not "corporate" flying. this is charter substitution.

Many corp operators run 2,3,5 or more aircraft 800+ hours a year each to places Netjets dispatchers couldn't find on a map - nevermind get there..

and keep in mind there are companies out there (with large flight departments) that could buy Berkshire hathaway outright - in cash.

Dont be over-impressed by Warren Buffett and think HIS billions are going to improve YOUR life as a pilot!!!...I have worked for bankrupt charter dump outfits that paid 2X as much.....he may have the bucks, but if your little NJA does not make him profits...guess what? -- time for paycuts!!

You may work for a billionaire (we all do) but you are just another biatch in the system. Dont forget that.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Wow Falcon Capt....that was pretty interresting reading. NetJets openly states that they are not the cheapest.........but what many of our owners realize is that it might be cheaper to operate their corporate aircraft, provided everyhting is working OK. But if that private jet breaks what are you going to do? NetJets has a fleet of nearly 500 aircraft. If one breaks another is sent to cover the trip. Yes, you might be a little late in some cases but you'll get there.

As an owner you pick up the phone and within 4 hours a plane is there for you. If you only own 1 share you can still use up the 4 aircraft at one time. MX is taken care of, pilots and FAA is taken care of, changes in the regs,customs arrangements, catering, ground transportation.....all taken care of by NetJets....its all inclusive.

If your time is money, that's where Netjets comes in......It is certainly not for everybody's budget but they must be doing something right given the number of aircraft that are arriving on the property every month.

 

[banned username 2]

It is certainly not for everybody's budget but they must be doing something right given the number of aircraft that are arriving on the property every month.

Your right, it does work for SOME instances... such as the guy on here NJAowner, he can't afford, nor does he need a full aircraft of his own, his share works well for him... He uses it a lot for personal trips (drop the family off at XYZ and pick them up 10 days later, etc...)

But the other member was trying to insinuate that NetJets is the end all, be all Corporate Flight Department replacement, which is certainly is not... Not even close...

 

[GVFlyer]

NetJets

Gulfstream's marketing agreement with NetJets allows Gulfstream to sell shares under the "Gulfstream Shares" program to present large body jet owners. Mid and small cabin jet owners and Concept Buyers buy their shares from Netjets. Marketing material from both companies shows that fractional ownership is most cost effective for some one flying 200 hours a year that's why the tail numbers end in QS - Quarter Share (a whole share is 800 hours). Less than 100 hours - charter, more than 200 hours a year - buy your own airplane.

GV

 

[DO-82 driver]

Falcon Capt......It is true that many corporations have dissolved their aviation department and have turned to the fractionals for most of their travel needs. In other instances corporate flight departments have used their fractional shares to compliment their own fleet. I have done many trips for campanies with their own fleet but needed another aircraft to maybe fly just 1 person into a small strip or something along those lines. This whole concept of fractional aircraft is still amazing to me......There was an obvious need for it, someone saw that need and is making big $$$$ because of it....what next.....selling water in a bottle for $2.00 a shot??????

 

[SCT]

DO-82,

My current company used to have a 1/4 share that supplemented our flight department (Fortune 500). It worked out great. We would use the fractional instead of dead heading our own a/c to the west coast for a p/u or for board meetings when we needed an extra a/c. Unfortunly, the 1/4 went with a division the company sold off. The only negative comment I heard was, the ceo said he didn't liked to see different pilot faces all the time.

Is there any F-500 companies that are strictly using fractionals?

 

[DO-82 driver]

SCT.....sorry to hear the CEO didn't like to see different faces everytime here flew with the fractionals. I can say that the way NetJets has standardized their fleet as far as CRM is concerned kind of makes our crew concept akin to that of the majors. I personally think we have too many call outs but my point is the cockpits are standardized for safety reasons and it works pretty well.


As far as Fortune 500 companies who use fractionals in lieu of have their own fleet. Yes....there are some of those using various fraqctionals.

 

[SCT]

DO82,

It's just his preference, not safety. The ceo is cool, but doesn't even like to see fill in pilots on our own a/c.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

No, I dont want anything to do with fractional flying (cant afford the paycut and have NO desire to work that hard).

But, when someone asks about fractional life and considers it "corporate flying", there is nothing wrong with setting the record straight is there? The two are VERY different - and a newbie should know this.

And Griz, I have no contempt for fractional pilots! - I always say you deserve more, etc...

but yeah now that you ask, lots of us ARE pi$$ed that you $hits work for such peanuts. Its hard enough to get good raises, bonuses, etc, these days nevermind having morons flying bizjets for regional pilot pay....I know I know...the contract...its coming...

industry whores man...the only one making a freakin' dime is Uncle Warren, and you folks seem to cherish that fact.

 

[Nightmare67]

Gulfstream 200 wrote,

"lots of us ARE pi$$ed that you $hits work for such peanuts."

"industry whores "

NICE...Your a REAL professional.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

well, none of the above...but if I ever really wanted an expensive car, at least I could consider it..

and you?

you got a car payment griz??.....I bet you do!!

and I bet its a real nail-biter each month on 37K/yr Captain salary!


All that pathetic $hit I enlightend you about and all you can say is "what kind of car you drive G200?"...c'mon man, you started this! - you can do better!

got yourself a big biatch slap of reality, eh?

 

[banned username 2]

I often wonder why Falcon Capt and Gulfstream 200 spend so much time reading a board devoted to fractional flying.

It's called the "New Posts" button at the top of the screen, it shows all threads that contains new posts since your last visit. Why not read? I read some of the airline threads as well, although I never have had any desire to go to the airlines... Knowledge is key...

Do you drive monster trucks with big tires to make up for other inadequacies?

Oh, and my car? Yeah, its a 1995 Grand Am... 88k miles... I don't waste my money on expensive cars, anyone who knows anything about money knows a car is a terrible investment... A car is merely a form of transportation to me... I put my money in my 401k, my investment portfolio, my house, kids college funds, etc... Never had a car payment, never want one (Paid cash for my wife's 2003 Mini-van)... My only debt is my mortgage and that will be gone soon...

Griz, you sound frustrated? You know, no one is tying you down and keeping you at NetJets... There are other good opportunities out there... Don't think for a second Uncle Warren is gonna make you rich... Uncle Warren is all about making one person rich, and that isn't you...

 

[SCT]

Griz,

Just curious, when are you guys going to vote on a new contract? Is there a set date?
I know a few EJ pilots and you guys have been talking about this contract for what seems like years. Is your current contract expired? I hope it works out for you guys.....it seems like you work way to hard.

Best of luck.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

oh griz...this has gotten completely childish, has it not? I can get a wee bit carried away myself...

I meant no disrespect to you personally, and it does appear we really DO agree on MOST things here...

anyways..I truly wish you the best with a new contract, higher pay, etc..is very much deserved.

Good Luck!

(Let this stand as my once-a-year semi-professional post!) - now back to the bickering....

 

[wingnutt]

SCT,

Contracts under the RLA don't expire. They become ammendable. Ours became ammendale in Oct of 2001.

hold up...so technically management has no reason to change the current contract? the follow up to that being, whats the advantage to having a contract that never expires???

 

[suen1843]

for the last time...


and keep in mind there are companies out there (with large flight departments) that could buy Berkshire hathaway outright - in cash.

If you look at the per share price of BK/H it appears that if you wanted to buy the whole company for cash you would have to come up with about 100 billion bucks...give or take a few bil. Warren himself has a portifolio of BK/H stock worth 36 billion. Could you let us know what company has the financial strength to come up with that kind of cash.