What do the SWA guys lose by not making a deal with FAPA?

General Lee

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INTL flying. (SWA management doesn't trust them) ATL gates.(BHM is close...) DCA gates and slots. More LGA slots. ANC. Denver dominance. Service to the Inter-Mountain West on the Dash-8-400 fleet---actually a good prop with a lot of seats---one SWA would use if they had their own. A place to put their incoming 737s. Some upgrades that will now mirror the economy. Making sure Republic didn't get too big.


Oh well, you can gettum next time! Gary Kelly must be shaking his head right now.....And, thanks again Age 65....


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

GuppyWN

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I agree. F9 would be a good deal for SWA. That's why we need to buy them.

Gup
 

General Lee

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Gary Kelly wanted F9--he offered a lot more money than Republic did. Swapa could have come up with some deal that was more fair than a staple. That is simply ridiculous.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

GuppyWN

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Gary Kelly wanted F9--he offered a lot more money than Republic did. Swapa could have come up with some deal that was more fair than a staple. That is simply ridiculous.


Bye Bye--General Lee
General, I understand what you are trying to say. You are speaking from the perspective of a MERGER with two relatively healthy airlines of relatively equal size.

The SWA deal is a BUYOUT for BANKRUPTSY. I would be "simply ridiculous" for the F9 guys to think they deserve straight up relative seniority.

Gup
 

FDJ2

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The SWA deal is a BUYOUT for BANKRUPTSY. I would be "simply ridiculous" for the F9 guys to think they deserve straight up relative seniority.

Gup
If you have faith in that argument than you should bring it to the negotiations, absent a negotiated agreement you should bring it to a nuetral arbitrator who will balance all the equities in the merger situation and construct a fair and equitable seniority list that recognizes each pilot groups contribution.

By far the best road forward is a negotiated list, while straight relative seniority might not work, a staple appears to be way out of line. The F9 pilots bring gates, slots, passengers and growth opportunities that SWA needs. It is not for nothing that SWA is willing to pony up $170M,
 

GuppyWN

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If you have faith in that argument than you should bring it to the negotiations, absent a negotiated agreement you should bring it to a nuetral arbitrator who will balance all the equities in the merger situation and construct a fair and equitable seniority list that recognizes each pilot groups contribution.

By far the best road forward is a negotiated list, while straight relative seniority might not work, a staple appears to be way out of line. The F9 pilots bring gates, slots, passengers and growth opportunities that SWA needs. It is not for nothing that SWA is willing to pony up $170M,

I don't disagree with you. If I was a F9 pilot I would rather take my chances with an arbitrator. It can't get any worse than a staple. SWA pilots have more to lose by going to arbitration.

I MIGHT be up for integration of some sort but I haven't heard anybody pony up a suggestion. Anything from me would include ZERO SWA pilots losing any seniority and heavy on the bottom with F9 guys.

If the #1 F9 guy thinks he should be slotted in next to the #1 SWA guy he's got another thing coming. 1994 at the earliest with 10:1 after and 300 on the bottom? How's that sound?

Gup
 

General Lee

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I don't disagree with you. If I was a F9 pilot I would rather take my chances with an arbitrator. It can't get any worse than a staple. SWA pilots have more to lose by going to arbitration.

I MIGHT be up for integration of some sort but I haven't heard anybody pony up a suggestion. Anything from me would include ZERO SWA pilots losing any seniority and heavy on the bottom with F9 guys.

If the #1 F9 guy thinks he should be slotted in next to the #1 SWA guy he's got another thing coming. 1994 at the earliest with 10:1 after and 300 on the bottom? How's that sound?

Gup
Gup,

I don't think relative should be supported, or DOH. Personally, I would start at the half way point in the SWA seniority list, and then throw one F9 guy in, and then 5 or so SWA guys. Something like that. Give some of the senior F9 guys some credit for longevity. You can then staple the Lynx guys, and then that would give some more protection. There you go.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

hockeypilot44

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Alpa should have created a national seniority list YEARS ago using straight DOH. Then these sort of situations could be avoided.

I do get tired of pilots putting other pilots down because their company is bankrupt. The company being bankrupt is no fault of the pilots just as the company being healthy has nothing to do with the pilots. Who knows? Maybe Southwest will go bankrupt in the next 25-30 years. If that happens, some of the junior SWA pilots will still be working at the time. SWA is one or two bad CEO's away from turning into a completely different company. Hell, your business model has already changed. Southwest now serves, LGA, BOS, IAD, PHL, LAX, DEN, etc. and a whole lot of other airports that are expensive to operate out of. Throw in the highest labor costs in the industry and no fuel hedging advantage and all of the sudden SWA has problems. Also, we all know how fast industry leading pay can go away.
 

johnsonrod

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Gup,

I don't think relative should be supported, or DOH. Personally, I would start at the half way point in the SWA seniority list, and then throw one F9 guy in, and then 5 or so SWA guys. Something like that. Give some of the senior F9 guys some credit for longevity. You can then staple the Lynx guys, and then that would give some more protection. There you go.


Bye Bye---General Lee
That sounds pretty sensible to me. Use a formula that rewards longevity but does not give away Capt slots. Keep the Dash pilots at the very bottom. Hey, 40+ airplanes (probably many more than 40) would be on the way to replace the buses anyway.

I am sure SWA management is fuming right now. Why would they agree to pay something like $60M more than Republic unless they really wanted/needed F9 and the DEN hub for growth? But I guess the SWA pilots should decide everything from a strategic point of view with or without SWA management. If this deal caves that arrogance will be a HUGE STRATEGIC BLUNDER because Republic (despite their low pay which I disagree with) will want to grow F9.

Maybe all you SWA Top Gun pilots should watch this video and realize your glory days are long over:

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/8afa50b440/iceman-the-later-years-from-nino
 

FDJ2

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what percent? how do you own growth or passengers?
Through your collective bargaining agreement.

G. MERGER PROTECTION

1. In the event of a merger between the Company and another air carrier (i.e. the combination of all or substantially all the assets of the 2 carriers) where the pre-merger operations are integrated, the integration shall be in accordance with Sections 2, 3, and 13 of the Labor Protective Provisions specified by the Civil Aeronautics Board in the Allegheny-Mohawk merger (“Allegheny-Mohawk LPP’s”). The term merger as used herein means joint action by the 2 carriers whereby they unify, consolidate, merge, or pool in whole or in part their separate airline facilities or any of the
operations or services previously performed by them through such separate facilities.

2. In the event the Company acquires all or substantially all of the assets or equity of another air carrier, or another air carrier acquires all or substantially all of the assets or equity of the Company, the Company shall meet promptly with the Association to negotiate a possible Fence Agreement to be in effect during the period, if any, the 2 carriers are operated separately without integration of the Pilot work force. These discussions shall not be pursuant to Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act, as amended, and reaching an agreement with the Association shall not be a prerequisite for closing, or any other aspect of the transaction or operations pursuant to the transaction.

H. SUCCESSORSHIP

1. This Agreement shall be binding upon any successor or assign of the Company unless and until changed in accordance with the provisions of the Railway Labor Act, as amended.

For the purposes of this Paragraph H, a successor or assign shall be defined as an Entity, which acquires all or substantially all of the assets or equity of the Company through a single transaction or multi-step, related transactions.

2. No contract or other legally binding commitment involving a successor or assign shall be signed or otherwise entered into unless it is agreed as a material and irrevocable condition of entering into, concluding and implementing such transaction that the successor shall be bound by this Agreement, shall recognize the Association as the representative of the Pilots, and shall assume the employment of the Pilots.
 
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