What counts as a "Hold" for IFR currency?

[UndauntedFlyer]

I really can not find anything on this.

So the questin is: What counts as a hold for IFR currency? Do we need to make it at least once around the race track? Or, how about a turn and 1-min outbound leg, would that count? Or this, I was asked to "hold" short of a runway the other day. I "held" short for 4-minutes until I was cleared by ground control to cross the runway. Does that count? I wouldn't think so but maybe somebody out there would want to count it.

I guess the answer is this: If you think you "held," and you think it meets the requirements, just put it in your log as "holding" procedures without additional comments.

Your questions or comments are welcome.....

 

[minitour]

I've heard differeing opinions on this one, from a complete hold (crossing the fix two or three times) to just doing the entry and/or intercepting inbound.

I'm sure it's probably somewhere in the middle.

-mini

 

[User546]

I guess the answer is this: If you think you "held," and you think it meets the requirements, just put it in your log as "holding" procedures without additional comments.

They'll never know one way or the other.

So I guess whatever you think constitutes a hold works, just make sure you have the correct book answer for them when asked!

My personal opinion is that entering a hold, and intercepting inbound, would constitute holding for reasons of currency. If they expected a hold to be 2 or 3 turns, then they surely would've put it in the regs. The FAA is too legalistic not to. The biggest thing about holds that people need to stay current on is the entry. Anyone can fly 1 minute legs, or 5 mile legs, but the big thing is getting into the hold properly and at the right spot. Being able to do that and flying atleast the outbound, and turn inbound, should constitute holding in most books.
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[timeoff]

I am gonna go with crossing the fix twice (once on the entry and a second to complete the inbound leg). I don't think there is a "legal" answer to that question.

 

[unreal]

I've always considered it an entry and one trip around the block to intercept back inbound.

 

[nosehair]

...and I'm gonna go you one further...what's "(iii) Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigation systems"?
All of these requirements (6 instrument approaches, holding, and tracking) have no real definement within the wording of the regulation itself.

Seems to me the lawmakers leave that up to the integrity of the pilot himself. Just as it should be. Required time and/or events are for the purpose of insuring proficiency. And I honestly can remember a time when pilots knew when they were proficient and/or needed practice for proficiency. Pilots were not of the kind of people who only wanted to "get by" with a legal definition of these requirements...

But I digress. This question on "what is a hold" will be bounced around just like "what is a legal loggable instrument approach?"

You probably won't hear too much about my question on intercepting and tracking because most every one is comfortable with the popular "tracking a final approach course", but I say that is different - that's an instrument approach and (iii) is different from (i). The purpose being to require some radial/bearing tracking as in an airway or a transition to an IAF with a full approach, so that we don't become totally dependent on radar vectors.

I think the hold means twice over the fix - from entry to established on course over the fix.

I also think that the pilot - or the instructor when it is a dual flight - has the power to call it as he see fit. The same as on an instrument approach.

We should have "prefered guidelines", but the final call is the pilot or instructor in charge. If the actual or simulated hold or approach is "almost complete", and proficiency is consistent with similar recent events, we all know when we have done/seen enough.

 

[FL420]

Regardless of the letter of the published FAR requirement, I would think a demonstration of proficiency would include a proper holding pattern entry, proper heading control inbound and outbound correcting for crosswinds, proper turn at each end correcting for winds, proper timing inbound and outbound correcting for winds and a proper exit from holding. Proper radio procedures entering and leaving holding should also be demonstrated.

 

[Holding Short]

When do you report the hold ? Is it when you first cross the fix on the hold entry or it when you hit the fix the second time.

HS

 

[DJRobbioRobbio]

When do you report the hold ? Is it when you first cross the fix on the hold entry or it when you hit the fix the second time.

HS

I do believe it's when you pass the fix the second time, and you're established in the hold.... with your minute inbound leg...

My big problem now is figuring out HP entries..... Anybody with good mental tips to remember which headings give you which pattern entries?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

So no one thinks that if you hold short of a runway for a while that that would count as holding?

You are holding, aren't you?

 

[unreal]

I do believe it's when you pass the fix the second time, and you're established in the hold.... with your minute inbound leg...

I always report right after crossing the fix the first time during the entry. I suppose if ATC asks you to "report established" in the hold, it's a bit different. I've always been asked to "report entering" a hold.

My big problem now is figuring out HP entries..... Anybody with good mental tips to remember which headings give you which pattern entries?

Sure. Let's say that you were told to hold north on the XYZ 360-degree radial.

Direct: Simply look at the outbound course of the radial you'll be holding on, and turn to that heading. In this case, your outbound turn after reaching the fix the first time will be to heading 360, since you're holding on the 360 degree radial. Note that once you complete your turn to heading 360, you're established on the outbound leg of the hold.

Teardrop: I've always used the "LARS" acronym for this. You know that you'll be turning 30 degrees in some direction once reaching the holding fix, but LARS clears it up. LARS stands for "Left Add, Right Subtract." If you're setup for a teardrop entry and you'll be holding with left turns, simply add 30 degrees to whatever your outbound course is. If you're holding with right turns, subtract 30 degrees from your outbound.

For our example: Let's say that you're approaching XYZ from the southeast on the 150 degree radial. We know that since we'll be holding with right-hand turns, we have to subtract 30 degrees from the outbound course. Our outbound course in the example is 360, so the initial turn will be to heading 330.

Parallel: Just like a direct entry, your initial turn after crossing the fix will be to the outbound course. Much unlike the direct entry though, you won't be established on the outbound leg. You'll be paralleling the inbound leg on the non-protected side. Still using the XYZ R-360 example, let's say that you're approaching XYZ from the west on the 270 degree radial. Once you cross XYZ, you'll make a left-hand turn to heading 360 and count out your 60 seconds when appropriate. Now, you typically have two options:

1. You can make a long left-hand turn to heading 140-150 in order to set up for a 30-40 degree intercept for the inbound course from the protected side. This is my preferred method. Just to reiterate, after your 60 seconds on the outbound course is up, you'll be turning towards the protected side. Watch out that you don't turn the wrong way.

2. You could do a "90-270" turn, which just entails a 90 degree left-hand turn to heading 270 (again, towards the protected side), then after getting wings-level, a long 270 degree right-hand turn to heading 180. Timed properly, you'll roll wings-level on heading 180 on your inbound course.

Either method works, but as I said, I like #1. I wish I could draw these out for you (I hope that I'm making sense), but I suppose that's what your instructor is for.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Seriously, you all are making way too much out of what counts as a hold. If you think you did a hold then log it. If ATC says turn right to 270 degrees for a delay vector and then back around again and you want to count that then log it. If you think it should count just log it as a hold. It really the honor system, just like the 6 approaches. Count them if you think it should count.

 

[DJRobbioRobbio]

I always report right after crossing the fix the first time during the entry. I suppose if ATC asks you to "report established" in the hold, it's a bit different. I've always been asked to "report entering" a hold.



Sure. Let's say that you were told to hold north on the XYZ 360-degree radial.

Direct: Simply look at the outbound course of the radial you'll be holding on, and turn to that heading. In this case, your outbound turn after reaching the fix the first time will be to heading 360, since you're holding on the 360 degree radial. Note that once you complete your turn to heading 360, you're established on the outbound leg of the hold.

Teardrop: I've always used the "LARS" acronym for this. You know that you'll be turning 30 degrees in some direction once reaching the holding fix, but LARS clears it up. LARS stands for "Left Add, Right Subtract." If you're setup for a teardrop entry and you'll be holding with left turns, simply add 30 degrees to whatever your outbound course is. If you're holding with right turns, subtract 30 degrees from your outbound.

For our example: Let's say that you're approaching XYZ from the southeast on the 150 degree radial. We know that since we'll be holding with right-hand turns, we have to subtract 30 degrees from the outbound course. Our outbound course in the example is 360, so the initial turn will be to heading 330.

Parallel: Just like a direct entry, your initial turn after crossing the fix will be to the outbound course. Much unlike the direct entry though, you won't be established on the outbound leg. You'll be paralleling the inbound leg on the non-protected side. Still using the XYZ R-360 example, let's say that you're approaching XYZ from the west on the 270 degree radial. Once you cross XYZ, you'll make a left-hand turn to heading 360 and count out your 60 seconds when appropriate. Now, you typically have two options:

1. You can make a long left-hand turn to heading 140-150 in order to set up for a 30-40 degree intercept for the inbound course from the protected side. This is my preferred method. Just to reiterate, after your 60 seconds on the outbound course is up, you'll be turning towards the protected side. Watch out that you don't turn the wrong way.

2. You could do a "90-270" turn, which just entails a 90 degree left-hand turn to heading 270 (again, towards the protected side), then after getting wings-level, a long 270 degree right-hand turn to heading 180. Timed properly, you'll roll wings-level on heading 180 on your inbound course.

Either method works, but as I said, I like #1. I wish I could draw these out for you (I hope that I'm making sense), but I suppose that's what your instructor is for.

Let me rephrase the question...

I already know about the types of entries, but let's just say we were told to... "Hold North of the XYZ VOR, 360 Radial, Right Turns, Expect Further Clearance 1845Z" And we were flying inbound to the fix, on a heading of let's say 230 (ok, I know this on is a direct entry, but bear with me here...), what I'm getting at is, what is an easy way to deduce which is the best way to enter a hold, given a certain heading to a fix.

 

[unreal]

Ah, sorry. I misread your question. I thought by "headings," you meant headings after the fix. I didn't mean to try to tell you something you already knew.

Personally, the way that I figure out which entry to use (and what I've taught to people with good results) is to simply look at your DG. Pretend that the center of the DG is the fix you're going to hold on. Now, in your head draw a line between the center of the DG and the outbound heading marked on the gauge. Here's a diagram of what I'm talking about so far, using the example of holding NW of XYZ on R-320. (I'm studying up for a CFI interview coming up, so let me practice on you if you don't mind ):

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j31/dasleben/b3040fd9.jpg

Anyway, from there I simply think about what the hold looks like with the turns included. Just for fun, we'll say left turns. By the way, I wanted to use your example of holding on R-360, but MS paint sucks:

Now, you can really do one of two things. Personally, I can eyeball this very quickly and see that it's going to require a parallel entry. I'm sure you can too. The real tricky part is when it's a close call between two options. At that point you could just use the tried-and-true 110-70 rule to figure it out:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j31/dasleben/dg3.jpg

Anyhoo, I probably haven't done anything more than prove to you guys that I have way too much free time on my hands, but I hope you get the jist (and I answered your question). The nice thing about this method is that it doesn't require you to use crutches like drawing on a sheet of paper to figure out. Simply look at your DG.

 

[Doozer]

People make this IFR currency thing way too difficult

The requirement in 61.57(c)(1)(ii) actually just states "Holding procedures."

I substitute holding patterns for my procedure turns on some of my approaches. After all, the method of course reversal is your choice (unless it's actually depicted as a holding pattern entry) and the entry and first orbit are the relatively difficult parts; the rest is pretty much droning around in ovals.

Finally, if someone can make me understand exactly how intercepting the holding course inbound is not "Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigation systems" I'd be most grateful.

I submit that you're killing two birds with one stone on each approach conducted in this manner.

Repeat 5 times, and you're current for IFR.