What a Crock!!!

[D-Bo]

Yes, I just bought 3 tickets on AWA, and one on AA - they pay their bills you see....that's the difference, well one of the differences. At AWA you'll get a smile, too. I have little respect for people or companies that continue to waste money while sucking it out of the honest folks & taxpayers via. bankruptcy. You should, too. Again - I don't want to see them on the street, but I do want to see a balanced playing field here.

AZT

You must be another one of those folks who thinks Bankruptcy is some new phenomenon. Is this all new to you? I'm not happy about the whole situation of whats going on in this industry but this is how the game is played. It's been played over and over again.

D-Bo

 

[GuppyPuppy]

right on big duke six..... every one on this board will be paying for United's irrational pension plan. I can see the taxpayers of the US paying for pensions of a dissolved company but not for one that continues to operate!! This is crazy. I am subsidizing companies that compete against mine through the ATSB and the Pension benefit guarantee corp. Ok, the ATSB was a good idea in theory, but not how it has played out in US air's hand. I mean, there have been so many covenants of the loan guarantee allowed to be disregarded. Competition is good, not selective socialism by the US gov't.

That has not happened in the UAL case.

How do you feel about Frontier getting subsidies from the US government to fly from DEN to FAT (Fresno)? This is a case of YOUR tax dollars going DIRECTLY to the Frontier Airlines bottom line. Fresno is NOT on the essential air service list. Frontier is benefitting from a bill introduced to ensure "low fare" competition at the expense of the US taxpayer.

Please respond.

GP

 

[FlyinScotsman]

I heard from a baggage handlers pool-boy that UAL is going to announce a huge A380 soon. Must be true

The baggage handlers have POOLS! I knew I was wasting time learning how to fly! I should have become a bag thrower for UAL thats where the real money is!

 

[Big Duke Six]

We go to Fresno? Not yet.


But, we will start there Aug 31. And we're getting gov't money for it? Where did you get your info? Whose "bill" are you talking about? I must have missed that.

As for my reaction to it, it's not any worse than UAL running predatory fares knowing full well they don't actually have to cover the cost of the trip. Everyone else does though, see. Example: $58 R/T to Reno last summer? Example: I had a guy on one of my flights last week who told me he flew R/T DEN/ATL for $98 (R/T!!) on United. All while hiding in bankruptcy. Yeah, that's fair. At least frigging ACT like you're trying to do the right thing.

 

[crashpad]

How do you feel about Frontier getting subsidies from the US government to fly from DEN to FAT (Fresno)? This is a case of YOUR tax dollars going DIRECTLY to the Frontier Airlines bottom line.
GP

FAT is soliciting for competitive service like any other airport and providing incentives to airlines to discourage monopolizing, price gouging practices (they also want better service).

Stop your whining and start paying your bills. Stop putting planes on the A concourse in DEN just to spite Frontier.

You are a burden to the productivity of this industry, and to the tax payers.

Ual has been tried, weighed and found unwanted.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

We go to Fresno? Not yet.


But, we will start there Aug 31. And we're getting gov't money for it? Where did you get your info? Whose "bill" are you talking about? I must have missed that.

As for my reaction to it, it's not any worse than UAL running predatory fares knowing full well they don't actually have to cover the cost of the trip. Everyone else does though, see. Example: $58 R/T to Reno last summer? Example: I had a guy on one of my flights last week who told me he flew R/T DEN/ATL for $98 (R/T!!) on United. All while hiding in bankruptcy. Yeah, that's fair. At least frigging ACT like you're trying to do the right thing.

[font=Times New Roman,Georgia,Times]By Valerie McLain
Staff Writer
[email protected][/font]

[font=Times New Roman,Georgia,Times]The Business Journal — Fresno officials have a federal grant to thank for bringing Fresno its first low fare air carrier in years.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman,Georgia,Times]Frontier Airlines will begin flying two nonstop flights from Fresno Yosemite International Airport to Denver in late August. The new contract is all part of a $1.1 million grant from the Department of Transportation designed to bring air carriers to small communities. The money will be used as a revenue guarantee and for publicity as Frontier begins serving the Fresno market.[/font]


This information is also listed on the Frontier airlines website under "press releases".

Fresno a small community? Hardly. Last time I was through the official population was nearly 400,000 people.

Do you really believe that the $58 RNO and $98 ATL trips applied to every seat on the airplane? What about Frontier offering $99 trips between FAT and DEN? Does that fare actually cover the cost of flying a 70 seat RJ for a two hour trip?

GP

 

[Clyde]

Ok for all those cry baby whiners out there, you knew what you are getting into. Everyone knows how this career field is, if you can't take it, go elsewhere, i was trying to make a light situation out of a serious one, but then you proceeded to piss me off. If you guys don't like getting furloghed, having pensions cut and the like then either quit and find a new career or strike and try to do something about it. Quit crying like a bunch of babies, sell your hundred thousand dollar boats and your house in the keys and try and live like the rest of america. You guys still make so much more than the average american. You think I am sitting here giving a crap that you are pulling down 200k a year and still can't pay the bills? No, it's called life in this career. Yes it is sad it has to happen, but if you all can't sit back and make light of a horrible situation once in awhile you are going to have a crappy rest of your life. You guys make me sick

This is a good example of why the bar is continually being lowered. Idratherfly4283, I'm not flaming you or trying to insult you, but I am just pointing out the obvious here.

You said:

"You guys still make so much more than the average american. You think I am sitting here giving a crap that you are pulling down 200k a year and still can't pay the bills?"

The average pilot typically is far more educated and skilled than the average American. The average pilot has more responsibility than the average American. The average pilot is away from home more than the average American. This is not just an "average job", otherwise every average American would be flocking to it.

Because this is not your average job and a pilot has sacrificed a lot more than the aveage American, he/she has EARNED and DESERVES a higher-than-average salary.

You say you don't give a crap about pilots pulling down $200K a year and still can't pay the bills. Maybe you should offer to teach courses on personal finance. Or, more realistically, you should really stop posting uneducated phrases and making a fool out of yourself.

"Everyone knows how this career field is, if you can't take it, go elsewhere, i was trying to make a light situation out of a serious one, but then you proceeded to piss me off."

You are correct, everyone who is in this profession knows how tough this career field is. Those that are here have chosen it's challenges with the hope of being rewarded. An even greater majority have viewed the challenges and decided to choose another career before taking their first flight lesson, thus becoming an "average American" and earning an "average wage."


"Quit crying like a bunch of babies, sell your hundred thousand dollar boats and your house in the keys and try and live like the rest of america."

And how does the rest of America live? I don't know about you, but I know a lot of pilots at various major airlines, including mine, and I have yet to meet one who owns a $100K boat and a house in the keys. Most, including myself, own a modest home in a nice part of town, drive an older car, and live below our means. The last time I checked, the "rest of America" was in serious debt, filing personal bankruptcies, and was trying to live way ABOVE their means. Again, you have managed to make a very uneducated, stupid statement. Who do you know that owns a $100K boat and has a house in the keys? Or, did you happen to hear another CFI at your flight school just mention that as a cliche??

"No, it's called life in this career."

Judging by your tone, attitude, and demeanor in your above post, I don't believe you have enough experience to even guess what life in this career is all about. I would venture to guess that your only exposure in this career field so far is the 500TT you have logged so far in the practice area and in the traffic pattern.

"If you guys don't like getting furloghed, having pensions cut and the like then either quit and find a new career or strike and try to do something about it."

So, after managing to insult and otherwise ridicule ALL professional pilots out there, you are now offering some advice on what people with 100 times your experience level should do. Maybe you should offer to teach a seminar on this.

IN CLOSING:

You, my friend, are one of the many people responsible for the lowering of standards in this industry. When times were good, you probably hung posters of Boeing's and Airbuses next to your Brittany Spears poster hoping and dreaming of that big airline career, including the big salaries that come with it. Times are bad right now, but you think $200K/yr is too much money, especially since you don't make that amount. So, as the bar gets lowered, so do your standards. Is $100K/yr a justified amount for you to pay a B-777 Captain? To you it probably is, since it's a lot more than you are probably making right now. I guarantee that $100K/yr is not going to be a lot of money 20 years from now. But, you'll figure it out by then, because you are one who will sign a 20-year contract and sell your soul just to "fly a jet".

And before you compare pilot salaries to those of the "average American", why don't you also compare education requirements and dues that have to be paid as well.

 

[D-Bo]

Most of you guys are wasting a &^%$ load of energy for absolutely nothing. This is the aviation industry for crying out loud. Bankruptcy, subsidized routes, predatory pricing, and forking over employees is nothing new. Most of us have subsidized our current or previous airline personally through one contract or side letter at least once. If your company hasn't tried to fork over any of it's employees it's only because they haven't been in business long enough. They will eventually. That is the business.

I stooped getting mad at another airline as a whole for what their management does. We barely have control over what management at our own airlines do. UAL isn't the first airline to ditch pensions and the aviation isn't the first industry to have major players dump pensions. Quit taking what another airlines management does personally. It's not personal. It's business. It sucks. This whole industry sucks. No need to waste steam over things you have no control over. Your very lucky and one of the few if your airlines management cares about you. It's not the norm. You expect management at another airline gives a got ^%$# damn about you? Again.....that's the business.

For the many that act like they know exactly what bills are being paid and which bills aren't being paid, beside the pension, at UAL let me know. I would love to know. C11 doesn't pardon you from all bills. I'm not a proponent of what they are doing at all but I don't think some of you know everything that you're talking about. As far as the taxpayers dollars are concerned, we have not paid anything yet. UAL gave the pbgc over 1 billion dollars of the funds that UAL pilots earned. That is the money that is being paid out at a lower rate now. They also didn't get the ATSB loan so we didn't give them any money there either. Anyway....If you just can't let it go and think UAL is doing something illegal that you can prove.......sue them or have your airline sue them.


D-Bo

 

[GuppyPuppy]

Hey twobits...


What say you?

GP

 

[thruthemurk]

You do recall of course that America West was in bankruptcy itself for several years just ten years ago, and that Continental managed two trips through the bankruptcy courts. Both defaulted on hundreds of millions in loans, and were considered the worst airlines in the business at various times in their existence.

I say this to bash neither airline, but to point out the inconsistency of your "stance". The idea that these vast corporate entities have some character that is a collective reflection of the 100,000 employees that work there is nothing short of ridiculous. Their fortunes rise and fall with the carpetbaggers that pass through upper management - and with the skills of the accountants and lawyers to manipulate the laws of the day to best advantage.

Just to clarify - you are buying tickets on these airlines because they "pay their bills" ? OK.

murk

 

[twobits]

GP,

Did you remember that America West was in bankruptcy from 1991 through 1994?

funny



ok, united did not get ATSB funds but between them both US Air and United have recieved some form of massive gov't support (ATSB for US Air and pension gift for United). I guess I was misleading in the message. Add Frontier to the selective socialism category! However, on a much smaller scale. A million or two a year is nothing compared with United's benefit from not paying anything on their pensions and still operating. It will not be completely selective if the gov't allows other airlines to spread out their pensions (great for short term since they let United shed them, but a really bad idea for the future - just postpones the problem).

The US gov't should start moving toward a pure competition stance instead of a selective socialist stance. In competitive industries, companies who are not able to survive on their own either die or are bought and gutted. We have fought wars over trying to stop the spread of countries who controlled industries centrally and directly, yet the US gov't wants to control everything, just inderectly. An argument to this could be that the gov't is not supporting United by letting them be in bankruptcy. The counter is that the Federal judge should not have let United stay in bankruptcy for this long without a real plan to get out (other than saying we only need blah blah millions of dollars and we can think about exiting). Additionally, why is there Ch. 11? There should be a CH. 7 and that is it! just my $.02

 

[AZ Typed]

Just to clarify - you are buying tickets on these airlines because they "pay their bills" ? OK. murk

Yep. They play fairly. I could care less if Bankruptcy is "part of the game." It's a cheap way out, sorry. My stance is not inconsistent. Sure, AWA was in the tubes 10 years ago - the difference now is that they are now up to par and paying their bills.

You have UAL and Independence in Dulles - nice competition - UAL takes cash in, but sends none out (I know they still send some out, so don't pull that weak line of crap). Unbelieveably, Independence is holding their own.

You have NWA and Spirit in Detroit. When NWA goes in - what will happen to Spirit? Will they be able to compete with NWA who just told the creditors to go ___ themselves? Yeah - that's fair, that's helping our economy.

You have DL and Airtran in Atlanta...same story. If DAL goes in...Airtran will be forced to play business on a difference scale since they will likely continue to operate ethically.

Alright - maybe NWA and DAL won't spend 2+ years in bankruptcy. I undersand it's used to work the system. It's the fact that UAL has had over 2 years to figure out a plan and they have NOTHING. Meanwhile, you and I bail them out for incompetent management and lack of decision making. Meanwhile, investors who decided it would be a good idea to loan UAL cash for airplanes, equipment, etc are getting screwed because their once hefty returns on investment are now gone. Wakeup Call: Those guys still have bills to pay. So you see, I understand bankruptcy is part of the game. But it's not meant to be used maliciously as part of a business plan...long term. The effects of UAL's lack of ability to maintain status quoe is hurting many folks downline. How would you like it if the 767 you leased to UAL now costs you money every month instead of earning you money every month? Unless you're one of those Carlton Sheets RE investors who likes to dump cash into rental homes, I don't think anybody would enjoy carrying the company they were once earning money from. Blah Blah Blah...we could go on all day. Enough.

AZT

 

[GuppyPuppy]

GP,

ok, united did not get ATSB funds but between them both US Air and United have recieved some form of massive gov't support (ATSB for US Air and pension gift for United).

Unfortunately the pension issue was brought about by laws that let it happen. During the good times UAL was not required to boost their payments into the pension funds. Instead they (Goodwin & co.) wasted the record profits on things like Avolar, US Airways, internet companies and a pilot contract that was unsustainable (thanks Dubinsky...you got yours).

Unless some sort of pension reform is enacted by the federal government other airlines will join US and UA in dumping their pensions. This happened in the steel industry and will eventually happen in the auto industry unless the feds step in.

Should UAL be allowed to continually postpone their exit from Chapter 11? Doesn't seem fair that they have had well over two years to get their act together. But, they are operating within the law (as screwed up as it may be).

I truly believe that had UAL decided to ask for the ATSB loan GUARANTEE (it is, or was a guarantee, NOT a loan from the government) right after September 11th, they would have been OK'd for it. Clueless Goodwin waited until it was too late. America West got the ATSB guarantee and they weren't even directly affected by the terrorists.

OK. BigDukeSix...what do you think about F9 getting a revenue guarantee to serve FAT from DEN, a city pair that is already served by UAL. Seems like a contradiction that the feds are paying money to help Frontier compete with United, and yet are hoping that United will come out of Chapter 11. Or are they?

GP

 

[GuppyPuppy]

Yep. They play fairly. I could care less if Bankruptcy is "part of the game." It's a cheap way out, sorry. My stance is not inconsistent. Sure, AWA was in the tubes 10 years ago - the difference now is that they are now up to par and paying their bills.

So, when UAL gets out of bankruptcy you will be buying tickets on United?

The only reason that AWA is paying their bills now is because they were in Chapter 11 bankruptcy PROTECTION from 1991-1994.

GP

 

[Big Duke Six]

OK. BigDukeSix...what do you think about F9 getting a revenue guarantee to serve FAT from DEN, a city pair that is already served by UAL. Seems like a contradiction that the feds are paying money to help Frontier compete with United, and yet are hoping that United will come out of Chapter 11. Or are they?

This is very common in the airline biz. The gov't has been subsidizing air travel into selected cities since the 20's or so (I was going to say "1957, or '58" for those of you who saw the video about "NASSA"). Now, as to why this particular city now, and how this plays in UAL's plan: I don't think much can be read into it. Look at another city: MIA. I'm sure UAL also flies into MIA, but ATA/SWA just grabbed ahold of an incentive put up by the airport to lure an LCC to MIA. It's the same in FAT. Hell, Campbell County in WY bought a Metroliner a few years ago for Big Sky to add to their fleet so they would start serving Gillette from Billings and Casper. Of course, GL went into hysterics but this stuff is the only way cities can incite a carrier into town. I'm sure if we look, we'll find UAL also takes money to serve some city somewhere. And remember, we're talking F9's FEEDER carrier here, so if you want to put apples against apples I'm sure that we'll find United
taking money for a route served by one of its many feeders.

As to the rest of your question, I don't think the gov't really thinks protectionism is the right way to go on getting UAL out of bankruptcy. It may help, but if UAL thought it needed to avoid LCC's, then it wouldn't have piggybacked itself and Ted onto our routes like it has in the last year or so. I guess the bottom line is that if it wasn't F9 going into FAT it would be someone else.

Edited for typo and clarification