What a Crock!!!

[twobits]

GP,

Did you remember that America West was in bankruptcy from 1991 through 1994?

funny



ok, united did not get ATSB funds but between them both US Air and United have recieved some form of massive gov't support (ATSB for US Air and pension gift for United). I guess I was misleading in the message. Add Frontier to the selective socialism category! However, on a much smaller scale. A million or two a year is nothing compared with United's benefit from not paying anything on their pensions and still operating. It will not be completely selective if the gov't allows other airlines to spread out their pensions (great for short term since they let United shed them, but a really bad idea for the future - just postpones the problem).

The US gov't should start moving toward a pure competition stance instead of a selective socialist stance. In competitive industries, companies who are not able to survive on their own either die or are bought and gutted. We have fought wars over trying to stop the spread of countries who controlled industries centrally and directly, yet the US gov't wants to control everything, just inderectly. An argument to this could be that the gov't is not supporting United by letting them be in bankruptcy. The counter is that the Federal judge should not have let United stay in bankruptcy for this long without a real plan to get out (other than saying we only need blah blah millions of dollars and we can think about exiting). Additionally, why is there Ch. 11? There should be a CH. 7 and that is it! just my $.02

 

[AZ Typed]

Just to clarify - you are buying tickets on these airlines because they "pay their bills" ? OK. murk

Yep. They play fairly. I could care less if Bankruptcy is "part of the game." It's a cheap way out, sorry. My stance is not inconsistent. Sure, AWA was in the tubes 10 years ago - the difference now is that they are now up to par and paying their bills.

You have UAL and Independence in Dulles - nice competition - UAL takes cash in, but sends none out (I know they still send some out, so don't pull that weak line of crap). Unbelieveably, Independence is holding their own.

You have NWA and Spirit in Detroit. When NWA goes in - what will happen to Spirit? Will they be able to compete with NWA who just told the creditors to go ___ themselves? Yeah - that's fair, that's helping our economy.

You have DL and Airtran in Atlanta...same story. If DAL goes in...Airtran will be forced to play business on a difference scale since they will likely continue to operate ethically.

Alright - maybe NWA and DAL won't spend 2+ years in bankruptcy. I undersand it's used to work the system. It's the fact that UAL has had over 2 years to figure out a plan and they have NOTHING. Meanwhile, you and I bail them out for incompetent management and lack of decision making. Meanwhile, investors who decided it would be a good idea to loan UAL cash for airplanes, equipment, etc are getting screwed because their once hefty returns on investment are now gone. Wakeup Call: Those guys still have bills to pay. So you see, I understand bankruptcy is part of the game. But it's not meant to be used maliciously as part of a business plan...long term. The effects of UAL's lack of ability to maintain status quoe is hurting many folks downline. How would you like it if the 767 you leased to UAL now costs you money every month instead of earning you money every month? Unless you're one of those Carlton Sheets RE investors who likes to dump cash into rental homes, I don't think anybody would enjoy carrying the company they were once earning money from. Blah Blah Blah...we could go on all day. Enough.

AZT

 

[GuppyPuppy]

GP,

ok, united did not get ATSB funds but between them both US Air and United have recieved some form of massive gov't support (ATSB for US Air and pension gift for United).

Unfortunately the pension issue was brought about by laws that let it happen. During the good times UAL was not required to boost their payments into the pension funds. Instead they (Goodwin & co.) wasted the record profits on things like Avolar, US Airways, internet companies and a pilot contract that was unsustainable (thanks Dubinsky...you got yours).

Unless some sort of pension reform is enacted by the federal government other airlines will join US and UA in dumping their pensions. This happened in the steel industry and will eventually happen in the auto industry unless the feds step in.

Should UAL be allowed to continually postpone their exit from Chapter 11? Doesn't seem fair that they have had well over two years to get their act together. But, they are operating within the law (as screwed up as it may be).

I truly believe that had UAL decided to ask for the ATSB loan GUARANTEE (it is, or was a guarantee, NOT a loan from the government) right after September 11th, they would have been OK'd for it. Clueless Goodwin waited until it was too late. America West got the ATSB guarantee and they weren't even directly affected by the terrorists.

OK. BigDukeSix...what do you think about F9 getting a revenue guarantee to serve FAT from DEN, a city pair that is already served by UAL. Seems like a contradiction that the feds are paying money to help Frontier compete with United, and yet are hoping that United will come out of Chapter 11. Or are they?

GP

 

[GuppyPuppy]

Yep. They play fairly. I could care less if Bankruptcy is "part of the game." It's a cheap way out, sorry. My stance is not inconsistent. Sure, AWA was in the tubes 10 years ago - the difference now is that they are now up to par and paying their bills.

So, when UAL gets out of bankruptcy you will be buying tickets on United?

The only reason that AWA is paying their bills now is because they were in Chapter 11 bankruptcy PROTECTION from 1991-1994.

GP

 

[Big Duke Six]

OK. BigDukeSix...what do you think about F9 getting a revenue guarantee to serve FAT from DEN, a city pair that is already served by UAL. Seems like a contradiction that the feds are paying money to help Frontier compete with United, and yet are hoping that United will come out of Chapter 11. Or are they?

This is very common in the airline biz. The gov't has been subsidizing air travel into selected cities since the 20's or so (I was going to say "1957, or '58" for those of you who saw the video about "NASSA"). Now, as to why this particular city now, and how this plays in UAL's plan: I don't think much can be read into it. Look at another city: MIA. I'm sure UAL also flies into MIA, but ATA/SWA just grabbed ahold of an incentive put up by the airport to lure an LCC to MIA. It's the same in FAT. Hell, Campbell County in WY bought a Metroliner a few years ago for Big Sky to add to their fleet so they would start serving Gillette from Billings and Casper. Of course, GL went into hysterics but this stuff is the only way cities can incite a carrier into town. I'm sure if we look, we'll find UAL also takes money to serve some city somewhere. And remember, we're talking F9's FEEDER carrier here, so if you want to put apples against apples I'm sure that we'll find United
taking money for a route served by one of its many feeders.

As to the rest of your question, I don't think the gov't really thinks protectionism is the right way to go on getting UAL out of bankruptcy. It may help, but if UAL thought it needed to avoid LCC's, then it wouldn't have piggybacked itself and Ted onto our routes like it has in the last year or so. I guess the bottom line is that if it wasn't F9 going into FAT it would be someone else.

Edited for typo and clarification

 

[crashpad]

GuppyPuppy is very smart. He eats bran daily and has been to the moon!

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Your input is really appreciated Mr. MEII C-150 flyer.

We're talking about nearly 90,000 employees and their families.

MEII C-150? Wouldnt that qualify him for the 777 CRM Instructor position at UAL?

 

[100LL... Again!]

This is a good example of why the bar is continually being lowered. Idratherfly4283, I'm not flaming you or trying to insult you, but I am just pointing out the obvious here.

You said:

"You guys still make so much more than the average american. You think I am sitting here giving a crap that you are pulling down 200k a year and still can't pay the bills?"

The average pilot typically is far more educated and skilled than the average American. The average pilot has more responsibility than the average American. The average pilot is away from home more than the average American. This is not just an "average job", otherwise every average American would be flocking to it.

...Truncated for space...


And before you compare pilot salaries to those of the "average American", why don't you also compare education requirements and dues that have to be paid as well.

Clyde - I love ya man as a fellow Bible thumper and conservative, but sadly most of what you are saying is what USED to be true.

The profession failed to keep the bar up in the KNOWLEDGE and SKILL department by failing to police our own ranks.

Therefore, the door was wide open for the poorly skilled and minimally educated "pilots" to slide in and lower the FINANCIAL bar.

ALPA should have gone down to GIA and told those fkrs that they will never fly at an ALPA carrier, for example. We have already hit the iceberg. NOw there is little to do but sit around and listen to the band until the inevitable happens.

 

[Mugs]

How would you like it if the 767 you leased to UAL now costs you money every month instead of earning you money every month? Unless you're one of those Carlton Sheets RE investors who likes to dump cash into rental homes, I don't think anybody would enjoy carrying the company they were once earning money from. Blah Blah Blah...we could go on all day. Enough.

AZT

Blah, Blah --- the first thing you have said yet that makes any sense. If you leased 767s to UAL and were smart, you put your foot down and sent them to parts of the world where the market was willing to pay the rates you demanded. UAL lost 4 767s recently, and then turned around and bought 4 more leased airplanes outright that would otherwise have been sent to Asia or India. The folks leasing 767-300s are doing just fine. The market for that airplane overseas is quite strong.

You really need to work on the examples in your arguments AZT. Independence "holding its own?" Funny I haven't read an article in the WSJ yet to support that. But, maybe you work there and could fill us in with the insider's scoop you picked up at the last kill United pep rally. How you managed to forget AWA's long stay in CH11 (as a much smaller and far less complex company than UAL) before using that example is beyond me. Didn't know about it because you are still popping pimples maybe? Think a little before you spout off.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

Look at another city: MIA. I'm sure UAL also flies into MIA, but ATA/SWA just grabbed ahold of an incentive put up by the airport to lure an LCC to MIA. It's the same in FAT. Hell, Campbell County in WY bought a Metroliner a few years ago for Big Sky to add to their fleet so they would start serving Gillette from Billings and Casper. Of course, GL went into hysterics but this stuff is the only way cities can incite a carrier into town. I'm sure if we look, we'll find UAL also takes money to serve some city somewhere. And remember, we're talking F9's FEEDER carrier here, so if you want to put apples against apples I'm sure that we'll find United
taking money for a route served by one of its many feeders.

I appreciate your response and the fact that we can keep this civil.

From what I've seen it is Frontier, not Horizon, who is getting the revenue guarantee. I don't claim to know what kind of contract Horizon has with F9. I would think that it is a fee-for-departure type contract. I'm not so sure that UAL is getting federal (or local) monies for any of the routes its feeders serve. The individual feeder carrier might be getting money from the Essential Air Service act, which is an entirely different issue.

If a local government wants to entice a business to operate within their jurisdiction, that is their business. I can completely see how competitors would see this practice as unfair. I understand that it is done all the time in the high-tech industry, major league sports and in the airline industry. However, should the FEDERAL government subsidize a company such as Wal-Mart to operate in a town that only has Sears, ACE Hardware and Safeway? I would say let Wal-Mart move in to that town when that town is ready to support it without any federal government help. I would also argue that it should be the same in the airline industry, in this case Frontier from DEN to FAT. Unless FAT was listed as an EAS city, the federal government should keep their nose out of this issue.

As an aside...It puzzles me why so many people bash eachother on these message boards. Calling eachother idiots, etc... is not productive. If we were to fly together and debate this over a few beers at the layover hotel, we would have a good time, an amicable discussion, and wouldn't be calling eachother names.

Cheers!

GP