We're Takin It Back!

[TurboAWD]

The union is worthless because the leadership will never say no to any contract, no matter what the consequences to the membership.

Do you mainline guys not get to vote on your contracts?

And as for your "it's RJ pilots fault" BS:

ALL OUTSOURCED JET JOBS WERE VOTED AWAY BY MAINLINE PILOTS!!!

RJ pilots may be fighting amongs themselves for lowest RJ pay, but none of them would be flying anything but props if you guys hadn't let it go. And then kept letting it go by voting away bigger and bigger aircraft. I should be complaining to YOU for wrecking MY career, if anything.

Thanks pal,

Turbo

 

[siucavflight]

Turbo, fantastic post.
Yeah A350, thanks for ruining our careers!

 

[A350]

Don't thank me....I voted NO.

If you had a union looking out for your career....it may not have happened the way it did.

Not only did it put a hurt on my career, it did the same to you as well. Now we live with the consequences.

A350

 

[TurboAWD]

Thanks for voting NO.

Although (and I am not talking about you), isn't it funny how after the fact everyone voted no?

As far as the Union thing, if the pilots didn't want the scope relief, they should have voted no. If they didn't think the MEC was representing them well, they should have replaced them. "The Union" is made up of pilots, and only pilots can give it direction and make things happen

As far as "National" not allowing crappy contracts that degrade the profession, I'm all for that. But looked what happened when the East guys didn't like what occurred: They want to take their ball and go home. Funny how there wasn't such outrage at the release of scope or even the bankruptcy contract.

Turbo

 

[arthompson]

AWAC was flying 100-seat BAe-146s for UAL before 9/11. quote]

This is not a fair comparison. As a former AWAC employee let me comment. ALL AWAC routes for UAL in the 146 pre 9/11 were routes operated by Air Wis before the buy out by United, UAL then spun off the company minus the slots that UAL aquired from ZW @ ORD. For many years all ZW had were the 146's and they were scoped out of any growth. The United Express "brand" came to UAX as part of the buy out by UAL, prior to that all the routes were code share, sold by ZW operated in ZW colors by ZW crews.

I don't know if ALPA was involved in the grievance, however the AFA was awarded an abritation for not being able to bid ZW routes while ZW was a wholey owned.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

A350-

Welcome to democracy.... you voted no, but as a member of a democratic organization, you did in the end vote yes.

Also, keep in mind, that the legacy pilots control ALPA thru democracy. You have more votes than the regional guys and you can always win thru votes.

A huge problem is the DAL, UAL, NWA, AAA, CAL pilot groups via thier MEC's act like warring faction tribes. Iraq has a better chance of peace after the US leaves than your MEC's do of working together. Until the MEC's starting thinking about the profession instead of themselves we will continue to suffer. The National election at the last BOD is a prime example. Pathetic and disgusting...

One of the many problems of this? Membership apathy. Until the legacy guys start taking repsonsibilites for this profession there will always be issues with scope and the regional guys.

If management are the parents (the with the money and operational control) then the legacy pilots are the 17 year olds and the regional guys are the 9 year olds. Now when Mom and Dad come home and want an explanation for the mess, the 17 year olds are blaming the 9 year olds.

ALPA's big problem is they condition every member to be an indepependant contractor. And ALPA is going to be thier personal advocate....

The legacy guys have the votes and power..... use it.

 

[John Pennekamp]

You regional guys just don't get it. You cost ALPA far more than you'll ever pay in!!! You hear that giant sucking sound? That's the sound of the regional ALPA carriers sucking all of the dues income from the legacy carriers who actually pay for the ALPA services that you use. If ALPA was "all about the money" as you say, then ALPA would dump every regional airline and only focus on the legacies. There's no money to be made in representing regional pilot groups.

That's the most asinine thing I've ever read from you. YOU were a fricking regional pilot just a few months ago. Now you're all high and mighty because you bailed out to Critter? You're not even an ALPA member any more. You have no dog in this fight anymore. Whatever!

 

[PCL_128]

That's the most asinine thing I've ever read from you. YOU were a fricking regional pilot just a few months ago. Now you're all high and mighty because you bailed out to Critter?

I've been consistent the entire time, John. I've always said that regionals should be scoped out as much as possible. When I was a rep, I posted many times about how ALPA spends far more money on the regionals than it ever takes in. The fact that I'm at "Critter" has nothing to do with my opinions on this.

You're not even an ALPA member any more. You have no dog in this fight anymore. Whatever!

Every pilot, even non-union pilots, have a dog in this fight. What happens at one company affects every other company. What happens within ALPA affects the entire industry, including the non-ALPA carriers.

 

[John Pennekamp]

First, there's no such thing as an "ALPA operations manual."

Yes there is, it's called the Admin manual. And Section 40 of it contains ALPA's guidelines for collective bargaining. This is the section that should read nothing over 70 seats unless it's flown by mainline. This lack of language is what could allow Mesa to bargain for A320s and Prater would be sued out of existence if he refused to sign it, absent a Section 40 prohibition. And all it would take is a BOD or EC action to fix this.

 

[PCL_128]

Yes there is, it's called the Admin manual.

Like I said, not called the "operations manual."

And Section 40 of it contains ALPA's guidelines for collective bargaining. This is the section that should read nothing over 70 seats unless it's flown by mainline. This lack of language is what could allow Mesa to bargain for A320s and Prater would be sued out of existence if he refused to sign it, absent a Section 40 prohibition. And all it would take is a BOD or EC action to fix this.

You're ignoring the very first line of Section 40, Part 5, John (emphasis added):

In the negotiation of agreements, every reasonable effort shall be made to achieve and maintain the following:
​

Section 40 is just a guideline of what to strive for, but ALPA doesn't require you to stick to it. I guarantee I could point out a few sections of the ASA agreement that don't comply with the guidelines in Section 40. Every contract has one or two items that are out of compliance. ALPA has never had minimum CBA guidelines, and it probably never will.

 

[John Pennekamp]

ALPA has never had minimum CBA guidelines, and it probably never will.

And therein lies the problem.

 

[PCL_128]

And therein lies the problem.

I agree with you. But good luck trying to force some of these mainline MECs to go along with minimum guidelines. That's the biggest problem with ALPA, and it drove Duane absolutely nuts: everyone wants to blame ALPA National for their problems, but no one wants to give National any real power. Dave Behnke's original idea of separate MECs that deal with their own local issues and negotiate their own contracts is the best way, but there's no reason that certain guidelines on big issues like scope can't be set by National. The problem is getting the MECs to cede some power to National.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And therein lies the problem.

I agree with you. But good luck trying to force some of these mainline MECs to go along with minimum guidelines. That's the biggest problem with ALPA, and it drove Duane absolutely nuts: everyone wants to blame ALPA National for their problems, but no one wants to give National any real power. Dave Behnke's original idea of separate MECs that deal with their own local issues and negotiate their own contracts is the best way, but there's no reason that certain guidelines on big issues like scope can't be set by National. The problem is getting the MECs to cede some power to National.

John.... let's look at a priority list of power.

1. Gov't
2. Corp America
3. Labor

You want ALPA to set minimum CBA guidelines? What are they willing to negotiate for it? If ALPA says 'min pay' then management says 'max pay'.

You debate like ALPA is secretly sabatoging its own members. Well? Maybe the members have poor expectation? Maybe they don't understand how its works. Which is surprising.. Cause most ALPA members are die hard GOP types. They are all about the free market economy... whoever is better, faster, cheaper......

But yet when they get hammered in the market place they cry for ALPA to install artifical market barriers and protections... all while voting for pro management politicians and not giving to the PAC.

Your reply?

 

[John Pennekamp]

Maybe the members have poor expectation? Maybe they don't understand how its works. Which is surprising.. Cause most ALPA members are die hard GOP types. They are all about the free market economy... whoever is better, faster, cheaper......

But yet when they get hammered in the market place they cry for ALPA to install artifical market barriers and protections... all while voting for pro management politicians and not giving to the PAC.

Your reply?

I couldn't have said it better myself. 95% of ALPA pilots are total hypocrites. They vote with their wallet for the very candidates who end up giving favors to large corporations. Then the corporations turn around and use the newly given powers on the employees, and suddenly they whine how the union should have protected them.

At least I can honestly say I put my money where my mouth is and vote for the candidates who will further my career the most. Both in the government and in the union.

Now how to fix this? You can't. Dave Behnke and the founders blew it and you can't put the genie back in the bottle after 75 years. We will always be a loose association with big mouths and very little power in the grand scheme. Which is why guys like me that once thought they'd "fix the union" have retired from politics and become one of the rank and file again. You'll realize this one day too.

 

[PCL_128]

Which is why guys like me that once thought they'd "fix the union" have retired from politics and become one of the rank and file again. You'll realize this one day too.

He's been doing ALPA work for a lot longer than you and I combined. If he hasn't given up yet, then I don't think he's going to.