Welcome Aboard Jet Blow Airlines....

[atafan]

Jet Blue, too much attitude?

I've been a lurker on this board for some time and finally feel compelled to post.

I was really excited when Jet Blue airline hit the scene. I thought, now here's a CEO that finally gets it.

I also have watched the level of arrogance and just plain hot air from many of the Jet Blue employees rise to irritating levels. Most of these types are from "airline newbies". I have some friends of mine working at Jet Blue that are airline refugees that do get the big picture.

I've seen airlines come and go, like all of us. I've ridden my share to their untimely death. I'm excited for you guys at Jet Blue, but please cut out the arrogant BS. These types seem to enjoy poking sticks at airlines like Delta, I agree that might be fun but remember: Sigfried and Roy is down one member, the tiger still has big teeth and sharp claws.

The party isn't over till it's over.

Thankyou for listening.

 

[AKAAB]

Feel better?

Thanks for playing, we have a nice home version of the game for you as a parting gift.

 

[crazee8]

I agree. I am disappointed in many of my fellow employees. We have a severe shortage of CRM here - and nobody cares. I am hoping that with an influx of experienced pilots from the furlough ranks, that things will improve.

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

wow, that's a refreshing post

 

[Eagleflip]

Horsehockey!

I respectfully disagree, both with Atafan's perception and Crazee8's summary.

What you see here (Flightinfo.com) is often the byproduct of the most vehement emotions and opinions of the 12,000-odd members. Much like a large group, only those with the strongest opinions tend to speak out on many issues.

Most of those who read these boards are, like you, lurkers. I would agree that some of the JetBlue types on this board are much more prone to "rah-rah" polemics than others. Do they embarass me? Sometimes. Do I wish they were more humble? Yep, but those who hold these arrogant thoughts are a small percentage of the whole.

But I would add that other diatribes are often in response to rather impolitic remarks from posters. I'd categorize your thread title in that group: Welcome Aboard Jet Blow Airlines. Seems to me that is a blatant poke at jetblue--don't you think that'll elicit a familiar response from those who love their company?

Debates between Delta dudes and JB are innevitable--we can hope to keep it sane and respectful, and even though we try to argue General Lee into submission, he gamefully replies and counters our comments. And you know what? I enjoy the debate--it is normally all in good form and fun.

Crazee8, you have GOT TO BE KIDDING! We have "a severe shortage of CRM here"??? In what respect? On the job, on this board, where? I certainly don't see it at work.

Far and away I see a commonality of thought: we are all lucky as hell to have a job, to be at JetBlue, and to fly for a living. Our relationships with management and other crewmember groups are pretty good. Most of all, 99% of those pilots I speak with know that we aren't going to be sure of our future until the fat lady sings at age 60. Then we'll figure out how well it went.

Do we have our share of arrogant guys here? Maybe, but while vocal, they certainly aren't the majority.

 

[crazee8]

Eagleflip,

You have an extremely excellent point in that we are very lucky to have jobs right now - and I feel the same way.

Don't get me wrong, I am not slamming JB. I was responding to a couple of the points of the original poster. I don't agree with the poster's overall slam of JB. I should have clarified that.

I stand by my lack of CRM comment - but I really don't want to go into too much detail on this public forum - what good would it serve. Sufice it to say that we have room for extreme improvement here. We have many people here who are very into their personal "captains authority" experience and it worries me - that is all.

 

[TriJet]

They are suffering from ugly shirt syndrone

 

[atafan]

I apologize for the subject title.

I agree, the title was emotional and I wanted to change it right after I posted the original thread. I regret my choice of words.

I know a few Jet Blue pilots and they like me have been around the block, these guys understand the big picture.

My original post not only applies to pilots but other employees as well. I read not only this board but others, I stand by my original observation. I see a real level of arrogance building at your house and it is up to the level headed JB employees to educate your co-workers with attitude. Attitude is good but We don't need to say everything we think.

Why do I even care enough to post? I really do like the whole Jet Blue experience and I am a big fan of your company and corporate philosophy but I've noticed myself getting very annoyed by your ten percent.

Nothing lasts for ever, especially in this business, you may need help from your brother pilot someday.

If your boat ever starts taking on water, it's better to be surrounded by dolphins than sharks.

My humble opinion.

 

[Eagleflip]

Well said, Atafan.

"We don't need to say everything we think." Lord, how many times would I have stayed out of hot water if I had only followed that advice.

Perhaps we should all remember that old adage "It is better to be silent and thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt."

 

[jointops]

Trijet,

Ugly shirt syndrome? Come on, the blue shirt accentuates the color of my eyes. You're just not looking closely enough to notice.

 

[Skank]

Our shirts are ugly, we are arrogant, etc, etc. Boy, you nailed us. I don't know what to do now that we've been found out.
Humbly yours,

Skank

 

[General Lee]

I give up. You win. We lose.....wait a second, I enjoy this banter--even though it seems it is me against everyone else. (Where is FDJ2 when I need him? He must have a line) I don't mind the occasional cockiness that comes through, hey Ty Webb does it too, and I probably come off that way too every once and awhile. It is great to have pride in your airline, and it is also good to back up your statements. A lot of the Jetblue guys/gals excitement comes from expansion, and I would be giddy too. And we all make statements sometimes that make us look like arrogant jerks---but this is a forum that is open to public opinion. Enjoy!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[SWAdude]

and I probably come off that way too every once and awhile.

General,

Every once and awhile???

SWAdude

 

[Noam]

I've never met a JetBlue pilot I didn't like, however that doesn't mean that they aren't out there. I'm sure JetBlue, as with ATA both have their fair share of bad apples.

So, a few JetBlue pilots have an attitude problem? I've also met a few ATA pilots who have such a poor attitude they should just get it over with and buy a coffin...however, I'm sure 99.9% of employees at both airlines do a great job and are a pleasure to work with. This business of one airline being better than another is silly. Nobody can predict with any accuracy who will be around 20 years from now.

However, why would it bother you that some JetBlue pilots you've met have an attitude? If I had to make a bet, in 30 years JetBlue and ATA probably won't be around (the nature of the industry?)...and in the meantime ATA pilots make more money.

Enjoy life while it lasts.

Noam @ ATA

 

[amfteamster]

I kinda liked the shirts at first. It reminded me of the P.O.S. shirts we used to wear. I thought to myself, "When did the commuters start wearing shirts like us Cargo Pukes?"

At least we were lucky enough to schuck the ugly blue shirts. Good luck to you guys during your next "Uniform rally!"

 

[skirt]

Crazze8,

I'll jump in with your CRM comment. Whether JetBlue pilots have good CRM or not, or for that matter whether any airline has good CRM or not, is one of those "beauty in the eye of the beholder" subjects. I'm not going to debate or take sides. We all see examples of good and bad CRM no matter what airline we work (or worked) at.

What I will take issue with is your comment that "nobody cares" at JetBlue. That is absolutely not true, and I know first hand. A team of pilots just started working on the first part of a whole new CRM program that will eventually incorporate the ENTIRE airline (rampers to pilots) by 2005. This will be an industry first, as prior to now, only pilots, flight attendants and dispatchers have been involved in CRM in most companies (some have included mechanics too). It has full support and backing by management, all the way to the top. Development includes front line pilots (including even new-hire F/O's) and top flight ops management too. This is not going to be a "top" down product, or even an "off the shelf" product.

So, to say that "nobody cares" is blatantly wrong. Regardless of the current status of CRM, JetBlue is throwing heavy resources into the program to make it better. There will be an opportunity for people like you, Crazee8, to jump in too and help with the program, if you care so passionately about the subject.

After all, "caring" is one of the values, right. People do care here.

Skirt

P.S. by the way atafan, I am NOT an "airline newbie." Yes, I am proud of my new airline, but I firmly believe there is an airline suited to every different pilot, and every different personality. Since JetBlue has chosen to hire in part for "passion," it is not surprising that some JetBlue pilots come across passionate at times. However, nobody could be as passionate as General Lee is about Delta or Lowercur is about the EMB family. We all belong here on this forum, and you can choose to skip over the people who get too passionate if you want. I enjoy reading the 'rah rah' ...including the General and Lowercur, as well as the blue koolaid... life is too short to be grumpy.... been there, done that.

 

[jetblue320]

If I had to make a bet, in 30 years JetBlue and ATA probably won't be around (the nature of the industry?)...and in the meantime ATA pilots make more money.

Enjoy life while it lasts.

Noam @ ATA

Care to back that statement up? (the one about ATA Pilots make more money that is)

As far as your 30 year prediction, well, you're entitled to your opinion.

As of our last wage increase (Oct 2001) we were slightly below (and just very slightly) SWA Captains. I think our FO pay is above most at first then tapers off but that's because of the relatively quick time to upgrade.

Seriously, please fill us in on ATA scales if you would, I am interested, not flaming or boasting.

C Ya

 

[a320drivr]

I would agree that some of our pilots are a little arrogant and drink to much coolaid. I have been flying 121 for 12 years and know all to well what can happen in a very short amount of time. Granted 12 years is not a long time but I have seen a lot in those 12 years. I hope jetBlue is around for a long time just like I wish the same for every other carrier out there.

 

[SWAdude]

I hope jetBlue is around for a long time just like I wish the same for every other carrier out there.

Amen brother. Amen

SWAdude

 

[Noam]

Well, I too hope that no other pilots get furloughed and we can all grow and prosper while serving the American public. Then there is reality...David Neelman, George Mikkelsons and half of the pilots reading this board could very well be dead in 30 years so who knows what LCC management will look like or even if LCCs will exist. Why predict it or worry about it? It is something we as airline pilots have little control over.

As far as ATA payscales, you can get them at the link:

http://airlinepilotcontracts.com/Contracts/ATA.pdf

I've done my own research, and from what I've found ATA probably has the best pay (including per diem, retirement, etc.) of most of the LCCs. However, I'm more than welcome to listen to you if your research differs. I think in some cases SWA does a bit better, but it depends on the situation.

I believe JBLU F/O's make more the first year, but I was talking about a 20 or 30 year career. I'm also familiar with the fact JBLU F/O's will probably upgrade quicker, and I also factored that into my analysis.

See ya,

Noam

 

[Noam]

O.K., I did a little math (on reserve today, at home, wife at work). I couldn't find reliable JBLU numbers so someone please fill me in. The following numbers are based on 80 hours block/month, 200 hours TAFB month. Holding the highest paying aircraft possible at January 2004 rates. They do not include other benefits or retirement.

ATA year 1
$41,040

ATA year 2
$66,160

ATA year 6
$137,175

ATA year 12 and beyond
$175,280

Please post some JBLU #'s and lets figure out how much a 30 year career is worth at both carriers. Also, I'm inviting AirTran, SWA and others to chime in with their data.

I figure that a 30 year ATA career with current Jan 2004 contract rates (not including retirement) is worth approximately $4.57 million (using the above rates).

Figuring out retirement isn't realistic because contracts change and investment strategies vary.

Hey General, is Delta triple these figures?

Noam

 

[General Lee]

Noam,

Well, currently without future paycuts they are. We are willing to negotiate, so they will go down. I think a 12 year Capt rate for the 777 is near $300 an hour. (but we have 8 777s---not many get there) It isn't good to have such a large Gap with the other majors (AA 777 Capt is $178 an hour--but they have more than 30 777s). I happen to think Job Security is better than super high wages.

And Skirt is right, I am passionate about my airline, and I have never said "Jetblue should die!!" etc.... I don't want anyone to lose a job, and I want all of the furloughs to come back to a good one.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[crazee8]

Skirt,

That is extremely encouraging to hear. I hope they get the program off the ground ASAP. I fully support all efforts in this area.

Further commenting on this topic has come to a close for me - I never should have posted to begin with.

Pardon me.

 

[jetblue320]

O.K., I did a little math (on reserve today, at home, wife at work). I couldn't find reliable JBLU numbers so someone please fill me in. The following numbers are based on 80 hours block/month, 200 hours TAFB month. Holding the highest paying aircraft possible at January 2004 rates. They do not include other benefits or retirement.

ATA year 1
$41,040

ATA year 2
$66,160

ATA year 6
$137,175

ATA year 12 and beyond
$175,280

Please post some JBLU #'s and lets figure out how much a 30 year career is worth at both carriers. Also, I'm inviting AirTran, SWA and others to chime in with their data.

I figure that a 30 year ATA career with current Jan 2004 contract rates (not including retirement) is worth approximately $4.57 million (using the above rates).

Figuring out retirement isn't realistic because contracts change and investment strategies vary.

Hey General, is Delta triple these figures?

Noam

JBU Pay as of now only goes out 10 years. First year Capt. pay (salary only, no PD or other pay) based on 81 hours a month is $114k 1st year, $117k 2nd, $120k 3rd, $122k 4th, $125k 5th, etc. Realistically, the "average" Capt, most of which are in their 2nd year at a minimum, make about $150k. SOme of the more senior Capts., which are just past their 4th year average $180-200k a year.

I won't go into the other monetary benefits because it will just draw hoards of the naysayers out of the woodwork stating our stock and other benefits are worthless and I am tired of hearing it.

All I was responding to was your statement that you made that "ATA pilots make more money" and it was so vague and un-substanciated that I couldn't resist a reply.

Sorry I made you do the math.

C ya.

P.S. Those numbers for first year pay you gave were for a Captain right? $41k a year for first year Captain pay???? Wow, our first year FO pay is $12k more than that!!! Over 4 million for a 30 year ATA career sounds good. Too bad you'll be dead or out of business!!!

 

[Noam]

Hey no problem about the math, sitting on reserve today not doing too much...and it is too cold to go outside.

Theoretically, our contract shows that if a person upgraded their first year at ATA their hourly rate would be $37.50. Of course, that isn't going to happen...upgrades have been running about 5 years seniority now.

Hey, I didn't say I was going to be dead! But, I think our CEO is like 66 years old...chances he will be running ATA 30 years from now are pretty slim. A shame too, for an airline exec he doesn't seem to be too shabby.

 

[dlredline]

P.S. by the way atafan, I am NOT an "airline newbie." Yes, I am proud of my new airline, but I firmly believe there is an airline suited to every different pilot, and every different personality. Since JetBlue has chosen to hire in part for "passion," it is not surprising that some JetBlue pilots come across passionate at times. However, nobody could be as passionate as General Lee is about Delta or Lowercur is about the EMB family. We all belong here on this forum, and you can choose to skip over the people who get too passionate if you want. I enjoy reading the 'rah rah' ...including the General and Lowercur, as well as the blue koolaid... life is too short to be grumpy.... been there, done that.

Best thing I've read on this forum, ever. Thanks.

Red

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

JetBlue employees,

Thanks for the jumpseat help. I love you folks.

Same for Southwest.



I know we are just folks trying to enjoy are working hours and hope we can all help each other. I forgive any that choose to spout off with the company line or slogan. Its natural to want your team to win.

But, as others have pointed out, the company line may change with shifts in the economy. We'll all still be here with our noses to the grindstone at one airline or another.

 

[jetblue320]

Hey no problem about the math, sitting on reserve today not doing too much...and it is too cold to go outside.

Theoretically, our contract shows that if a person upgraded their first year at ATA their hourly rate would be $37.50. Of course, that isn't going to happen...upgrades have been running about 5 years seniority now.

Hey, I didn't say I was going to be dead! But, I think our CEO is like 66 years old...chances he will be running ATA 30 years from now are pretty slim. A shame too, for an airline exec he doesn't seem to be too shabby.

Roger that (about the math and cold!).

I was teasing ya about the 30 year deal.

Our CEO is 44. And, he has 9 kids!! I know him personally and I am sure he'll be here for quite some time. Heck, he'll be out there pushing planes and hawking jetBlue probably after we're all long gone!!

C ya and have a good one.

 

[jetblue320]

JetBlue employees,

Thanks for the jumpseat help. I love you folks.

Same for Southwest.



I know we are just folks trying to enjoy are working hours and hope we can all help each other. I forgive any that choose to spout off with the company line or slogan. Its natural to want your team to win.

But, as others have pointed out, the company line may change with shifts in the economy. We'll all still be here with our noses to the grindstone at one airline or another.

I speak for us all and I say You're Welcome.

And well put about the grindstone.

C Ya