We Want Answers!!!!!!

[PCL_128]

Moderators, it's time for some answers. Why are TonyC and Chperplt banned or in "limbo" status? This is utterly ridiculous. Neither of these guys has done anything to warrant discipline whatsoever. Banning people without reason is absurd. I think it's time to leave flightinfo for good if the new administration won't answer for this and correct it.

 

[cforst513]

tonyC got banned or is 'limbo' b/c he actually questioned the reasoning of the webmaster (not necessarily the mods) and the webmaster felt threatened. i applaud TonyC for his efforts. he's a good guy and a great contributing member of this board. it's flightinfo's loss, not tony's.

 

[Al Coholic]

Chperplt(II) is banned for life because the Webmeisterdude banned him for threatening to out 350Driver. When he (Chperplt) PMd the Webmeisterdude and asked him what the heck he was talking about, the Webmeisterdude banned him for life and then said some choice words to him as well.

Chperplt has no desire to come back to this site...

 

[cforst513]

one step ahead of ya... i'm already there

 

[PCL_128]

one step ahead of ya... i'm already there

As am I. Looks like it's time to say goodbye to flightinfo.

 

[Birdstrike]

PCL, we're waiting for you over at our new place. Come on over and we're regrouping.

 

[Lead Sled]

Note to moderators...

All things in moderation - especially moderating. This is really sophomoric.

'Sled

 

[CA1900]

Careful, Lead Sled. Don't think they won't ban Mother Teresa, too! Now y'all get back to work now, y'heah?

 

[Midnight Flyer]

What's the big deal? First off, everything's anonymous in these internet message boards/chat rooms/discussion groups. I don't understand why some people are getting their feelings hurt or otherwise getting offended on here.

How can somebody "threaten" another person over the anonymous internet? Some of the members on here who are wrapped up in the politics of this board remind me of little old ladies bickering over nothing.

Also I don't understand why some people on here get their panties in a wad when they get "banned from this board for life". Remember, this is the internet; why not simply "reincarnate" into somebody new? Hello, McFly!!

 

[Lead Sled]

Careful, Lead Sled. Don't think they won't ban Mother Teresa, too! Now y'all get back to work now, y'heah?

I am hard at work as we speak. We're on a 48 hour layover in Teterboro. Just got back from lunch, our next task will be to decide where we want to go for dinner. However, before I do that I think that I'll take a nap.

'Sled

 

[banned username 1]

Hey guys

As fellow pilots and long-time posters who've given a lot to the success of this board, I'll talk to you as though we're sitting in the back of our favorite bar, and we're having some beers- you're buying, of course.

Let's get right to a couple of names that have been dropped in postings above: TonyC and Chopper Pilot (sorry, I never can get his shorthand right, so I'll have to spell it out longhand). I have a small PM dialog with both gentlemen and enjoy our rapport. For TonyC, he is a registered user at this time, and is free to post at his pleasure. Chopper Pilot (and his descendants) are in the banned category. As I understand, he and the websitemaster got crossways somehow and the websitemaster was threatened with legal action because of it. There you go. I make no judgements about it- there you go. Now, to the larger picture.

As one of my brothers said above, it's only the internet, and there are other posts attempting to bring issues into perspective, but here's really the bottom line: this board started out hoping to become a business, I'm sure. As these things go, it became a labor of love for Mark. It was supported by Mark's partners, who are now the "owners" if you will, of FlightInfo. As supportive to the memory of Mark as they are, this board is STILL a business to them, and as such, the realities of business can't be denied. It costs something to run and should at least have its expenses covered. Right now (and for many years) it isn't covering expenses- it's coming out of someone's pocket, and that pocket is Administrator's and Websitemaster's. Please try and put yourself in their place when you are paying the bills yourself and people are attacking you on the very forum you're paying to support! Think what it must feel like when a person who's been posting for free (and you're paying the freight) threatens you with a lawsuit! I'd be hot- and you would be too.

Gentlemen and ladies, as has been pointed out, this is only the internet and only a forum by, for and about pilots and their interests. Let's keep it simple, shall we? Let's not get wrapped around the axle about things. It is unbelieveable to me the number of threats of legal action about all manner of things that otherwise (I guess) rational human beings threaten to bring about to these guys (and the mods)! Trust me, it happens.

So, I spoke about the business side of this endevor. Sadly, Mark is gone and it eventually has to stand on it's own. And it will. The day to day moderating will now be done by the moderators that you've all grown to know and love:blush:.
But, as unfortunate as some people think it is that we have to have rules, because of the actions of a few, we DO have rules, and we have to inforce them. Here's why:

In order to attract advertisers, we have to do just a couple of things. We have to raise the level of civility on this board. The personal attacks simply have to stop. The links to porn (anything above PG-13) have to stop. Things that could run somebody into legal trouble (posting scab links, "outing" somebody, posting people's names, etc) have to stop. Racist comments, sexist commentsand the like have to stop. Folks, it's not really much more complicated than that. We need to make this place advertiser friendly.

The well-meaning mistakes and miscues of the past are behind us. I want all of the participants on this board to enjoy it to the fullest, but not to the risk of spoiling it for everybody else. If anyone finds that they can't abide by the few, simple things that we ask here, then we all ask that you take your internet business elsewhere. This is one of the top aviation-related sites on the internet, and we can still make it so much more- but we need to help each other.

You've asked for answers. Here are the answers. You've asked for honesty and candor, here it is. I personally ask all of you, as either aviation professionals, or just people who love aviation to use this as another way of enjoying something that we all love. And to take care of it and guard it in the same way.

Thanks for listening,
UAL78




The Administrator and the Websitemaster are going out to find advertisers to support the site. Moderation will be within the rules of the road found on each forum.

 

[Galaga]

UAL78,

Very nice words.

I can assure you that Chperplt did not threaten anything. He merely reminded the new "Flight Info Owner" that he was acting like a baby and should act his age.

He did ask the "Flight Info Owner" for his donations back if he (The owner that is) wouldn't conduct himself like an adult.

Should the "Flight Info Owner" send PMs with nasty language to a member accusing said member of doing something without any proof of that said something??

Have you or any other Mods viewed any posts from Chperplt or ChperpltII that threatened another member? If they were there, I'm sure someone would have viewed them and would have been able to provide some proof of those accusations.

It's quite obvious that Adolf sided with the antics of 350, TD, SplitS, and Kid C. It was easier for him to get rid of the good guys than to get rid of the problem..

By the way... I did ask Naomi about you..

 

[Vector4fun]

UAL 78, that was a well written and informative post.


Folks,

I haven't had much of anything to say about this bruhaha, but I'll say this now. This is a private web board. Each an every one of you is an invited guest on this board. Since it's privately owned, I think it's perfectly within the rights of the owners to un-invite whomever they choose, and to set a few rules for said guests. If I don't want to follow said rules, I'm free to leave and fund my own private web board featuring nude, rude, obnoxious, lewd, racist, mean-spirited and crude content. But I'm not into Politics that much.

While I'm no prude, (how long can I keep this up?) and I enjoy a well constructed female form or a truly funny joke as the next guy, I have no problem recognizing my place a a guest on this board. And I have no problem conforming to the owner's and moderators standards of behavior. If I don't like it here, I'm quite free to leave at any time.

Quite frankly, were I a professional pilot, I'd be a bit embarrased by some of the public antics of some of the more outrageous posters. I'd be embarrased that they represent my profession in such a manner.

 

[HMR]

Something I can't figure out is why this board is so hostile. I belong to several "non-aviation" message boards. On those sites, all of which are MANY times larger than FlightInfo, we know eachother by name, invite members over for dinner, swap equipment and "how-to's", etc. Just one example: I was involved in a serious motorcycle accident last July and the outpouring of support I got from the various motorcycle websites was overwhelming. People offered everything from preparing meals and rebuilding my bike to taking care of my dog. I don't even HAVE a dog.

On FlightInfo the response would've been- "uh, does this mean you guys are hiring?"

As for "lawsuits"- Give me a break! It's a freaking aviation message board. Is Pacific Jet really going to take you to court because someone on the website asserted that they "suck"? Is TDTurbo really going to fly his ice-encrusted 182 over FlightInfo HQ and drop a subpoena because someone said that he and 350driver are lovers? I don't think so.

Remember that old 70's TV commercial of the Native-American guy looking out over the polluted landscape with tears in his eyes? I picture Bobbysanmd coming back here for a visit and doing the same thing.

 

[Lead Sled]

Maybe I can pull some strings and take a few confessions. I will then grant absolution to all of you who have sinned and we can all start a new.

'Sled

 

[KigAir]

Something I can't figure out is why this board is so hostile.

I know what you mean. There are a lot of bitter people here.

 

[pilotyip]

back to the rules "This is not for the thin skinned"

 

[Simon Says]

Where have I been? I have been on this board for four years and had no idea there was such a political side to this board.

About lawsuits maybe I should sue flightinfo for a worn out keyboard. But seriously you guys do a fantastic job. Let me know when you need donations again.

Simon

 

[banned username 1]

As for "lawsuits"- Give me a break! It's a freaking aviation message board. Is Pacific Jet really going to take you to court because someone on the website asserted that they "suck"? Is TDTurbo really going to fly his ice-encrusted 182 over FlightInfo HQ and drop a subpoena because someone said that he and 350driver are lovers? I don't think so.


You would be surprised! You're only incredulous because you're rational. Yes, it happens. This isn't the UK and losers don't have to pony-up for the court and legal fees. It only takes a few knuckleheads to make a fun venture turn into a misadventure. But if you want a break, ok, you got a break.

Be well
UAL78

 

[Huggyu2]

As for "lawsuits"- Give me a break! It's a freaking aviation message board. Is Pacific Jet really going to take you to court because someone on the website asserted that they "suck"? Is TDTurbo really going to fly his ice-encrusted 182 over FlightInfo HQ and drop a subpoena because someone said that he and 350driver are lovers? I don't think so.

You are wrong. Are you familiar with the avweb.com lawsuit a few years ago? A couple of folks commented on an aviation lawyer, and the lawyer went at them and avweb.com. And I get the impression the lawyer made it hurt. I believe his last name is....

 

[HMR]

You are wrong.

I guess there's a first time for everything.

 

[Lead Sled]

I guess there's a first time for everything.

HMR, it's OK. Everyone makes mistakes. I made one once - I thought that I had made a mistake, but it turned out I was right.

'Sled

 

[100-1/2]

" The links to porn (anything above PG-13) have to stop."

So... "G-rated" or "super-soft" porn links are okay?

100-1/2

I'm assuming that you're an adult and that you exercise good judgement. I'll defer to your good judgement. If it differs from what the moderators consider appropriate, unless blatantly flying in the face of the spirit of the rules, you'll be given a polite request to ratchet it down a notch or two. Fair enough?

UAL78

 

[414Flyer]

I think a lot of us are fine with their being stated rules and if someone breaks rules, and if a banning results with an explanation as to why, then fine.

But when someone is not banned but gets the limbo treatment with no explanation as to why, well it really rubs people the wrong way. It gives the appearance of a sneaky underhanded way to silence someone who maybe did not break any rules, but who possibly had views that were in disagreement with the owners.

I know its their board, and they can run it as they wish. Based on conversations with other members and my own thoughts, I would highly suggest they end the "limbo" stuff because members have left specifically because of that. If they want to shut up members, they should just be enough about it to so in a publicly visible manner instead of an seemingly underhanded sneaky way.


***********************************************************

I hope you guys don't mind me putting my responses (and they are only my thoughts, but I do think they reflect the position of the other mods) here in your post, but people have asked for good communication from us and this way, the response is connected right to either the question or your opinion statement. So here goes:

I agree with you. How's that? I believe that you will not see that tool used much in the future (if at all). As you may have seen, the owners of the board have left it alone recently, and left the mods to handle the day to day stuff. I trust that the regular contributors are starting to see that the board has it's old feel back to it. As you can also see, there is no editing or censorship to the dozens of links and posts inviting you to aviation forums other than FlightInfo. That would be wrong and it's unnecessary.

Here are some things that I think you can rely on here at FlightInfo. Differences of opinion are welcome. What is not going to be tolerated is belittling, insulting, or harrassing another poster. You've all seen it here, and it leads to nothing positive and actually gets a lot of good people crosswise with the mods and each other. You're also going to see more communication to you- from us. Lastly, we are going to re-double our efforts to make sure that there is NO perception of partiality in what moderating must be done by the mods.

As I stated in another post, nobody understands pilot irreverance better than I do. In a darn, serious business, we don't take a lot of things seriously and we don't suffer fools well either. Gang, virtually everything (with a few exceptions) can be allowed here- just with some moderation- and I mean YOURS, not ours. It would be our goal to make these forums virtually "transparent" as far as our work goes. But it depends on all of you, the posters to exercise that same good judgement that you use when you are at a place that you hold some respect for. That's not unreasonable, is it?

Thanks,
UAL78

ps. as far as banning goes, that should be an absolute last resort and saved for the most aggregious cases. The Penalty Box should be all that we ever should need to rely on.

 

[Flechas]

HMR, it's OK. Everyone makes mistakes. I made one once - I thought that I had made a mistake, but it turned out I was right.

'Sled

Haha classic!!!

 

[surplus1]

UAL78,

Your efforts at damage control are good but they fail to address the real issue.

No matter the explanations that you've given, the fact remains that the owners of the board acted unreasonably and without justification. Obviously that isn't their opinion but it is mine. To date, they have made no real effort to alter their behavior and thier policy remains unchanged.

I don't think anyone objects to a set of rules per se. I don't think anyone objects to the banning of foul language, personal attacks, "outing", pornography, sexual references or threats against individual members or the administration of the site. However, the actions taken with respect to the Non-Aviation segment of the board, specifically the banning of all content related to religion, and the placement of honorable members into limbo status without any rime or reason or notice are not made excusable by your damage control effort or your references to advertisers.

Advertising is placed where there is an audience. When that audience leaves the advertising venue, the sponsors are advertising to no one. The exodus you have caused is growing and will have its own repercussions.

We have asked the owners to reinstate the non-aviation forum as it was. They have responded with a substitue that many of us consider to be inadequate, myself included. They have also offered no explanation of why they put people like TonyC into limbo and blocked his posts for a time. That may be satisfactory to them and to you, but it is not satisfactory to many of us.

To date I personally have not been banned, penalized or placed in limbo, with nearly 3,000 posts to my credit. I am not angry due to anything that has been done to me personally. I simply object to what has been done to others and to your recent change in policy.

Yes, they "own" the forum and can do as they please. In turn we "own" our freedom of speech, freedom of thought and freedom to choose both where we will read, where we will write, where we will go and where we will stay, and what terms we will accept.

It is best defined as freedom of choice. Your "owners" and advertisers have exercised there "freedom of choice". Your membership is doing the same.

In short, we have found another location that is more amenable to our taste. We have invited people of like mind to join us there and hope that they will in large numbers. We invite your owners and advertises to enjoy what you have left as long as you can. You made your choice, we provided you all with an opportunity to modify that choice and you have chosen to decline. Therefore, we have made our choice.

Best regards,

Sayonara.

 

[414Flyer]

Thanks UAL78. Open communication will be the be how the current difficulties will be overcome, to the benefit of the users, moderators and website owners.

 

[PCL_128]

I trust that the regular contributors are starting to see that the board has it's old feel back to it.

Well, with nearly 1600 posts I think I qualify as a regular, and surplus1 is certainly a regular also. I don't think either of us feels that things have their "old feel" back yet. The only thing that will bring back that feel is if the fascist anti-religion ban is lifted in the non-av forum and TonyC and Chopper Pilot (I can never remember how he abreviates it) are able to post again. Until then, flighinfo will continue to have a nazi Germany feel to it.

 

[Flibmeister]

...the avweb.com lawsuit a few years ago? A couple of folks commented on an aviation lawyer, and the lawyer went at them and avweb.com. And I get the impression the lawyer made it hurt.

Yes, he did. I have some personal knowledge of that situation, and I can tell you that it cost four posters to that board many thousands of dollars in attorney and settlement fees, not to mention the fact that the BBS was shutdown because of it. And, Avweb ended up being sold to Belvoir-- at what was rumored to be a greatly reduced price, due to the litigation.

Those four posters not only paid dearly for the privilege of calling Mr. Wolk names (and making unfounded allegations against him) in a public forum, they also found themselves making public apologies for their behavior.

BTW, Mr. Wolk donated the proceeds of the lawsuit to charity. It seems his intent was to send a message about what is and isn't acceptable behavior in venues such as this one-- and those of that were involved, however peripherally, received it loud and clear!

 

[Galaga]

Those four posters not only paid dearly for the privilege of calling Mr. Wolk names (and making unfounded allegations against him) in a public forum, they also found themselves making public apologies for their behavior.

I guess the moral of the story is to tell the truth and have hard facts before making any statements.
I've had an awakening the past few weeks as to how easy it is to track an "anonymous" poster down. The paper trail left behind a post or e-mail is huge and very easily traceable. Most people don't realize how anonymous the internet really is not.