Wash-out style of training

[El Piloto Chido]

There has been some mention on various threads about 'wash-out' rates for this company or that. I believe someone mentioned ATI's was around 80%. I've heard Omni's was high too. I know the Military uses that approach, but you can always opt for Nav, RIO, supply officer, or an NCO at E6 grade. Point being: Uncle Sam won't usually leave you out on the street.

Is it very common out there for companies to hire a bunch of guys initially, only to wash out most of em?

Most companies I've been with so far will start a class with a few guys of varied backgrounds who are deemed to be a potientally good fit. Some prior 121, some 135, some ex mil, ect. The training is tough, and the checkride ain't no free ride, but you sure as sheet won't find yourself in the unemployment line if you screw the steep turn. H#ll, I've seen guys get a second shot at a checkride, given that the oral/ride as a whole went well- maybe there was just one deficient area that needs ironing out. Obviously, if a guy just doesn't get it, or has a p*ss poor attitude, he probably SHOULD be shown the door. I've personally had a good pass rate so far, but I sure don't like the 'one strike you're out' mentality.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Better yet, which COMPANIES out there 'wash-out' vs 'train up?'

Thanks in advance.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Don't know about ATI, but my buddy on the -10 at Omni thought training was no big deal.

 

[Clyde]

I heard their philosophy is "when in doubt, wash 'em out"

 

[l8fr82hub]

ATI's "washout" rate was pretty much 0% until recently. I've talked to some of our current pilots and it seems like somethings changed in our training department. I'm truly sorry if you were affected by this and I hope you can move on to something better. I personally believe a high washout rate says more about the training department than the individuals being trained. Good luck.

 

[climbhappy]

i think it has more to do with instructor and not the company. some people just can't teach... they cannot relate to different personalities. also, due to their crass nature, they're actually covering for some deep rooted suppressed feelings of inadequacy themselves. i think the medical term is Projection.

solid instrcutors know what "simitis" is and know how to help a guy through it. guys with simitis can fly and on the line are fine.

i have a friend who was passed over upgrade at my outfit and he had a type. i just finished upgrade. i like him and just wish he'd a been given a chance. but in his intitial, he struggled and got through it. so the Dir of training isn't convinced he's a captain. even with the type( he got the type during a furough we had)

 

[MD11Drvr]

World Airways has always had a reputation for wash out but I have never seen where it was done lightly or with little regard to the affect it would have on the candidate. In fact I have seen many times where extra sims are given and the instructors would meet you half way every time based on attitude and whether you took the program seriously enough to study. The ones I have seen washed out for the most part was more an attitude or lack of study problem. WOA seems to have more trouble with guys who are used to a slower paced training schedule or a teach to proficency philosophy. There were several that had been at legacy carriers that WOA had hired while on furlough a few years back that had troubles and every once in a while a retired military guy will have trouble. In the DC-10 we are seeing trouble with some of the younger crowd who have never flown a heavy or jet steam gauge except for a Piper seminole. They are having situational awareness issues with no TV to watch. When I was ATI they seemed the same way inthat you had to apply yourself and they would meet you half way. In every case I have been told of with trouble in training there are 2 sides of the story and most of the time they are vastly different. Very few (myself included) can look in the mirror and except the blame if I did not do well as usually I have no one to blame but myself for a poor performance.

Just my humble opinion for what it worth..............

 

[Big Dog]

training

I know we don't fly heavy iron, but we do a lot of training and I see a lot of pilots. We need every pilot that comes in the door for class on the line but we're lucky if 65% or so get through class. The biggest reason is a poor attitude. It can take many forms. Typical is no/little preperation. "This is just piston freight, what do I NEED to do." We send a fully anotated POH, Flows, GPS Sim and GPS manual and wash outs rarely study anything. Another is distraction. Thinking about everything else in the world, your wife/girlfriend calling every 4 hours, planning your move, whatever. When you come to class you need to be thinking about 1 thing; Passing your checkride. Put everything else in your life on hold and get through class, minimize all other distractions. Another is no/little GPS approach experience. You gotta be able to spin the knobs and push the buttons while you fly, which means you must know how the box works. Poor flying alone rarely bounces people, but every now and then it's really that bad. Not listening to instructors is another. We have a training manual and when in doubt will tell you how it needs to be. Don't reinvent the wheel and feel you need to come up with a new way to fly. Not learning from your mistakes. If you screw up once, no big deal, learn and move on. If you keep making the same mistake 4 and 5 times it shows us one of 2 things; You are either not listening or don't care. Assuming the pilot can do no wrong, it's always the box or the gauge that is messed up. 99% of the time the pilot is messing up. And that's just the short list...

 

[b707guy]

As l8fr8 said above, our washout rate has been pretty much zilch over the years for off-the-street new hires. I understand that one of the five new hires didn't make it through the Feb class, which would explain the 80% figure given, but again, that's only for that class and is not representative of our training history. I think we're actually hardest on our own in that a number of our PFEs who've attempted FO upgrade haven't made it, including the sixth member of the Feb class. A number of PFEs struggled through, and a few sailed through as if they were born in the jet. Our training dept has undergone some changes recently, but unless there are some new trends just getting started, ATI shouldn't be a place to fear being hired into. The only place I've actually seen mentioned, and this was a while back now, was Trans States. I'm not picking on them, nor do I know if that's how it is now, but years ago when I was looking for a job, that was the one place that I was cautioned about.

 

[El Piloto Chido]

B707 guy, thanks for the input (all you guys actually). You mentioned Trans States, I also recall being warned about American Eagle in the same way.

In a nutshell: All of my multi crew PIC has been in big older props (>30,000 lb GTOW) with lots o' steam guages. Some glass, but that was a few years back.

I'm always one to hit the books b4 groundschool, and hit the flows b4 the first sim session. But, when I saw an earlier post mentioning an 80% washout rate, it raised some flags.

Anyway, It'd be great to fly the Douglas Eight.

 

[b707guy]

It'd be great to fly the Douglas Eight.

Well, if you're looking, now's the time to toss your name in the hat!