War and America

[TDTURBO]

TurboS7,
You took the words right out of my mouth!

It is clear you can't protect against terrorism. It is also clear that we are in this mess due to our inept foreign policy with regards to Isreal. Let Isreal fight it out without our support, as I stated earlier, there would be allot of happy people on earth if this was done. Isreals influence in this country is a cancer that needs to be cut out. It's time people realize it!

 

[Timebuilder]

The key phrase in your post is "if there is a threat." Almost everyone outside the White House agrees that Iraq is not a threat at the moment. I agree Iraq is scary and will probably have to be dealt with in the future...but for the love of Pete, even some of the weapons inspectors are saying that war is unnecessary!

Well, let's try and stay on target here.

Not everyone outside of the White House agrees that Iraq is not a threat at the moment. An LA TIMES POLL? You're kidding, aren't you. Might as well have been a NY TIMES poll. Why not a Quaker poll, or a Unitarian poll? Neither the LA or NY times would ever publish a poll that shows support for a republican president's position on anything.

Let's talk about the "weapons inspectors" a little. Hans Blix, a pacifist and Swede. Sweden is a "neutral country" with a "one world" view. Hans doesn't want to go home to Sweden as the "man that started a new Gulf war" because he found things that even the UN would have to agree are "material breeches". To Sweden, and many other European countries, the UN is the beginning of a New World Government, and the ultimate arbiter of what is right and wrong on Earth. The reason that they are free to have this view is because of what the US did in the 1940's that kept them from falling under Nazi control, which surely would have happened without our help. Ungrateful friends are one of the many burdens that we bear as Americans.

I found Deftone's post to be very refreshing, since he is no doubt far younger than those of my generation, who can recall actually hearing the words of JFK. "...the price of freedom IS eternal vigilance".

Now, we can ignore what our intelligence reports say, rely on what Hans and company tells us, abide by the sovereign opinion of this New World Government, and wait until this lunatic decides that all of this fervor has died down, and does something that seems immediate, terrible, deadly, and which unites the world against him.

At that time, it will be too late to stop him, and we will then struggle to arrest his activity and deal with what has happened.

I think that such a wait-and-see, reactionary plan is foolish. As far as the original point of the first post, I have this opinion. Free civil discourse happens before we take action. After that, our elected President, along with the agreement provided by the Congress, deserves our support. Standing shoulder to shoulder as Americans is the very essence of patriotism. It is the support for our values and decisions as a country. If you disagree with our course, speak up now. After the decision to act has been made, I expect you to see that you have argued you opinion and lost.

Then, like an attorney leaving the courthose, I expect a handshake and your unequivocal support of the actions of the United States.

 

[TXCAP4228]

...It is clear you can't protect against terrorism. It is also clear that we are in this mess due to our inept foreign policy with regards to Isreal. Let Isreal fight it out without our support, as I stated earlier, there would be allot of happy people on earth if this was done. Isreals influence in this country is a cancer that needs to be cut out. It's time people realize it!

TDTURBO, you are making a serious mistake at your, and OUR, peril.

We help Israel for several reasons.

1) First, I side with them on moral rightness. Terrorists blow up school busses over there killing Israeli children but for some reason I'm told I need to consider the "other side".

Sometimes when oppressors kill and maim the innocent for politcal ends, good people should step up and say "THIS HAS TO STOP. WE SUPPORT ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO EXIST."

TDTURBO, I will let you decide for yourself where you stand.

2) We support Israel for realistic reasons. Israel has committed themselves to their defense. If we do not assist, Israel will use nuclear weapons as a final defensive measure. It is in our interest both to be Israel's partner and to foment peace in that region. This goal is achiveable with the right players (the PLO and its current leadership are the wrong players.... but this is another topic).

======================

Typhoon,

For me the issue comes down to trust. More on this in a minute.

Sadam has demostrated cruelty to his neighbors and cruelty to his own citizens. Not less than 14 UN Security Council resolutions have been disregarded repeatedly by his government. Given his history and based on the force of International Law, we are not obligated to treat him as we would treat any other nation. In other words, we do not need a provocation of violence from him in order to act against his regime.

Secondly, For me to support military action against him I would need to be satisfied with evidence of one of three things:
1) That Sadam has continued to produce or stockpile weapons prohibited by UN sanction.
2) That his regime has aided terrorist groups with these weapons or otherwise.
3) That his regime poses a clear threat to us in some way through contemplated action that is occuring or will occur.

Now to get to the trust issue I started with:
I trust the W. has the information to satisfy one or all of the reasons I just listed. I want to see it for myself, and I think that the case needs to be made and that open debate should occur. This debate is one of the fundamental differences between America and Iraq. However, based on preparations for war, I trust this President while I did NOT trust the previous one.

Finally. I have not seen the "if you don't support the war you're unAmerican" sentiment that you say you have seen. A number of my more liberal friends complain to me that this attitude is pervasive - but I just don't see it. In fact, quite the opposite, I see most people having a reasonable discussion just like this.

I should check this board more often! Good thread.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

From TDTURBO:
"Isreals influence in this country is a cancer that needs to be cut out. It's time people realize it! [/B][/QUOTE]

Can you explain further? I'm not Jewish but I would like to know what you mean. I hear this stuff about the Israel and/or Jews being a problem and guess I just don't understand.
Personally, I think this country has been blessed by our friendship with Israel but I'm just a simpleton.

 

[tcoll777]

I saw we drop the nukes, pave over the mideast, and turn the entire region into a supersized gas station........problem solved...

 

[Timebuilder]

I trust the W. has the information to satisfy one or all of the reasons I just listed. I want to see it for myself, and I think that the case needs to be made and that open debate should occur. This debate is one of the fundamental differences between America and Iraq. However, based on preparations for war, I trust this President while I did NOT trust the previous one.

I don't want to see any of our intelligence capability displayed to the world. Unlike the benign aerial photos of missiles in Cuba displayed at the UN in the sixties, what we know about Iraq, if made public, could seriously jeopardize the efficiency of our intelligence gathering netwok, and the lives of agents and operatives all over the world. Also, once our enemies see examples of what we can access by intelligence, they will have opportunities to circumvent our future efforts.

Certainly we can release some types of information. I hope that what we can afford to make public will be enough to convince those who think this action against Iraq is unwarranted.

 

[enigma]

From TDTURBO:
"Isreals influence in this country is a cancer that needs to be cut out. It's time people realize it! "

Just what is Israels unfluence?

For all of those who think that Rev/Bro Jesse Jackson was justfied when he called NY "Hymietown", here's a fact for you.The USofA supports Israel because Israel is a western style representative republic. It is our policy to offer support to governments that treat their people well and allow freedom. The rest of that part of the world is made up of monarchies, despots, and dictators. If the Jews has as much power in our country as you all seem to think, then we wouldn't be supporting the PLO as well. It suprises most to find out that we do support Arafat with money, but we do. I really doubt that the Israelis agree with that.

regards,
8N

 

[TDTURBO]

From TDTURBO:
"Isreals influence in this country is a cancer that needs to be cut out. It's time people realize it!

Can you explain further? I'm not Jewish but I would like to know what you mean. I hear this stuff about the Israel and/or Jews being a problem and guess I just don't understand.
Personally, I think this country has been blessed by our friendship with Israel but I'm just a simpleton. [/B][/QUOTE]

I have nor the time or patience to write a thesis on foreign policy.

Israel has committed as many atrocities as any country, including the good 'ole US of A.

Fact: We cannot defend this country against terrorism.

Fact: Whatever benefits we received from being an ally to Israel is negated with the enormous financial burden incurred from that relationship. Terrorism is expensive.

I will not live in a police state because the Jews in this country want our allegiance to protect what isn't theirs to begin with. Our freedoms are slowly but surely being eroded due to the constant threat of terrorism. If you eliminate the REASON for the terrorism, you eliminate the problem. Don't be fooled by the media, the sole reason we have the problems we do, is because of us protecting Israel. Argue all you want, but this is the bottom line. I hope Iraq unloads on the f@ckers!

If you want to find out more on how Israel influences our policies, do a little research. I realize my views are politically incorrect, but too bad.

 

[enigma]

TDTurbo,

Do you think that all of the terrorism would go away if there were no Israel? What about if we just no longer supported them? If you think that the terrorism would just stop, how do you explain the trouble that Russia is having with the Chechens? What about northern Ireland? How do you explain the RedBrigade? Do the north Koreans support terror because of Israel? Yours is a very short sighted view of the world my friend. Heck, do you remember who Hussien was fighting during the 80's? Does Iran ring a bell, those middle east dictators just seem to need to support some type of terror or war all of the time. If Israel were out of the way, history says that they would just find someone else to hate.

regards,
8N

 

[TDTURBO]

Enigma,

I never said ALL terrorism would stop, but I would bet 90% of it in this country would go away if we pulled out of Israel.

I wonder what people really think when cloaked behind a vail of anonimity?

Lets see, shall we?

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Don't fret TDTURBO, I'm sure in the near future all nations will turn their backs on Israel out of political expedience. However, I think our personal freedoms we enjoy today will continue to erode whether or not we support Israel.

 

[Timebuilder]

Israel has committed as many atrocities as any country, including the good 'ole US of A.

When someone decides that they are going to fight you in a mud pit, you're going to get dirty no matter how much you'd like to remain clean. Understand?

Fact: We cannot defend this country against terrorism.

If you mean prevent terrorism, I agree to a degree. If you mean that we can't fight terrorism as a country, you are incorrect, in my view.

Fact: Whatever benefits we received from being an ally to Israel is negated with the enormous financial burden incurred from that relationship. Terrorism is expensive.

As has been correctly pointed out, ending our relationship with Israel would not end terrorism. Would it start another holocaust? Perhaps. It's a shame that people don't get along in the mideast, but that is more a function of ignorance of people living under monarchies than the freindship of the US and Israel. Most terrorists would keep up their activities against us if the Israeli connection ended tomorrow, simply because of our PAST association.

I will not live in a police state because the Jews in this country want our allegiance to protect what isn't theirs to begin with.

As pointed out before, Israel has been given their land twice. Most recently, in 1948 by a multinational coalition. I think that makes it theirs to keep.

I'm a little surprised, as I'm sure that others are here, by the anti-semitic rhetoric. Jews are not the cause of our problems, and neither is Israel. Most of what causes trouble for us is when we choose to rebel against God.

But we've already had that discussion. Allow me to be politically incorrect myself, for a moment.

Merry Christmas.

The preceeding words may not be heard in your local public school, so share them with everyone you meet in the next week.

 

[TDTURBO]

Timebuilder,

I think it best we agree to disagree, I am a realist.

It doesn't matter what I or you think anyway, I believe as a Christian this whole thing is prophesized anyway. All we can do is sit back and watch the apocalyptic end unfold.

Merry Christmas.

 

[Timebuilder]

If you accept the truth of prophecy, I don't see how you would hold the opinion that a breaking of relations with Israel would have any positive impact.


"Hold on tight, lassie. It gets bumpy from here."

"Scotty" in "Star Trek IV, The Voyage Home"

 

[Toecutter]

Judging from all of the enlightening and worldly comments that have been written on this thread, I'm guessing a lot of you are world scholars and war veterans. However, there are a few things that I would like to clear up.

The U.S. DID invade Mexico in 1846. The war lasted for two years.

American forces were kicked out of France in 1967.

The U.S. left the Philippines in 1991.

 

[TDTURBO]

If you accept the truth of prophecy, I don't see how you would hold the opinion that a breaking of relations with Israel would have any positive impact.


"Hold on tight, lassie. It gets bumpy from here."

"Scotty" in "Star Trek IV, The Voyage Home"

By improving the quality of life in this country, by not living in a police state, by not giving 36% of my income to the goverment because they need it for defense and on and on and on. I think those are positive, don't you?

Today is the youngest you're going to be the rest of your life, I don't want to spend the rest of mine looking over my shoulder because we are freinds with some Jews that contribute nothing to this country. I am speaking of Israel Jews, not the ones here. When its all said and done, they're toast anyway, we might as well speed the process up. I would rather die than defend Israel.

BTW: If you are a Christian you believe that you must believe in Jesus Christ as your saviour, the son of God, to be saved. If you don't, then you believe you go to hell. Therefore, as a Christian, you believe Jews go to hell. What do you have to say about that?

 

[Timebuilder]

By improving the quality of life in this country, by not living in a police state, by not giving 36% of my income to the goverment because they need it for defense and on and on and on. I think those are positive, don't you?

While positive, they are not tied to our association with the state of Israel.

BTW: If you are a Christian you believe that you must believe in Jesus Christ as your saviour, the son of God, to be saved. If you don't, then you believe you go to hell. Therefore, as a Christian, you believe Jews go to hell. What do you have to say about that?

While God has hardened the hearts of most Jews, some are accepting that He is the Messiah of the Torah. Check out an organization called Jews for Jesus, or a program on Christian radio called Messianic Minutes.

The majority of people on earth will turn away, not just Jews. The Bible speaks of a remnant of the jewish people who will survive to receive the promises made to Abraham, and they will worship with the gentiles during the millenial reign.

Good question. Glad to help.

 

[enigma]

TDTurbo

History shows that the Jewish race doesn't lose. No other race or nation has survived everything that has been thrown against them and continued to exist. They may lose the occasional battle, but they have outlasted every single threat. The odds are on the side of those who support Israel, and against those who oppose her. You may not like that, but it is a fact.

You wrote, "BTW: If you are a Christian you believe that you must believe in Jesus Christ as your saviour, the son of God, to be saved. If you don't, then you believe you go to hell. Therefore, as a Christian, you believe Jews go to hell. What do you have to say about that?"

I think that the GOD of Christians is the G-D of the Jews, the Jewish Bible is in large part a prediction of a Savior who will come and set up His Kingdom. Modern statisticians have calculated the odds of one man meeting all of those predictions as being on in ten to the 17th. Thats one in a quadrillion. Jesus fulfilled all of those prophecies. A modern Jew without Christ is just as lost as any other non-Christian.

But since the whole concept of one GOD/heaven/hell, etc comes from the Judeo-Christian GOD, if one chooses not to accept that GOD, why would one care whether or not a Jew goes to heaven, or if anyone goes to heaven for that matter?
Think about it.

regards,
8N

 

[TDTURBO]

Timebuilder,

I am very familiar with Jews for Jesus, sadly, 99.9999999% of Jews will not convert. Those that will, will be saved, in the mean time I wish these people would fight their own battles. Since this country is run by Jews, that will never happen. I still enjoy exercising my right to free speech but sadly, this also is getting harder to do.

You know there is something seriously wrong with this country when Trent Lott has to resign because he said Strom should have been president and Clinton can stay in office. WTF is that all about?

I think if we had more people that cared less about votes and more about principle, i.e.; calling it like you see it, then we would all be allot better off. Instead, we are breading a bunch of paranoid politicians afraid of saying what they REALLY think. How many people really think anyone shaking hands with Jesse Jackson is sincere? I guarantee, if it weren't for getting the "Jesse" endorsement, no self respecting person on earth would piss on him if he were on fire. That’s a whole new topic though. This country is really headed were all empires have ended, in the toilet.

But since the whole concept of one GOD/heaven/hell, etc comes from the Judeo-Christian GOD, if one chooses not to accept that GOD, why would one care whether or not a Jew goes to heaven, or if anyone goes to heaven for that matter?

Think about what? I do choose to accept GOD, and more importantly, accept Jesus Christ as my saviour. As a Christian, I should care if Jews get converted but I don't. I have to work on that I guess.

BTW: Jew is not a race, its a religion, Hebrew is a race. Second, the Jews have a "state" which may loosely be construde as a nation. They haven't had it long enough to make such remarks.

 

[172driver]

If everybody would just back off with the whole 'my god is better than your god' thing, this whole discussion would be unnecessary. The entire middle-east conflict is based on religious zeal and here we are debating the value of Jesus versus the Jewish. Are you two, with your Christian rhetoric, any better than the Muslims with theirs?

Furthermore, many of the posts in this thread seem to imply that the Palestinians must be oppressed because they resort to terrorism. One could just as easily say that the Palestinians must terrorize because the Israelis resort to oppression. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? I will go further than TD and say that we ought to force Israel to give the Palestinians a chunk of land. It has belonged to both groups in the past. Why should only one group own it now? However, unlike TD, my views are not based on anti-Semitism or religious convictions of any sort.

I believe the Arabs were deceived, lied to, and generally not given a fair shake after WWII. The Allies promised them the disputed land if they would support our efforts in the war. They held up their end of the bargain. Once it was over and Hitler's atrocities were discovered, we decided that the Jews needed a refuge, a homeland. The Palestinians have been forced by Britain and the U.S. to live under the military rule of their hated enemies, in the land they were promised, for decades. This is why they resort to terrorism.

Their land, sovereignty, and military were taken from them and given to their oppressors. They deal every day with Israeli soldiers in their homes, false arrests and interrogations, tanks, helicopters, poverty, and death. Again, both parties have a historical claim on the land. Both parties were promised the land. The Arabs controlled the land before WWII (among other times). Why not give some of the land to each party? Until this happens, there will be no peace. The Palestinians will not ever give up their claim on the land or their quest for sovereignty. Would you? The only other option is elimination of the Palestinians or of the Israelis. Both options would obviously result in a massive destabilization of the region.

Here's my scenario. There was a huge ethnic holocaust deep within Mexico, unknown to the world. The survivors need a place to live, out from under the government thumb. Let's say the entire world got together and decided that they didn't like the way Americans took Texas from Mexico long ago. They decide to give Texas to the Mexican survivors of the holocaust and take all weapons away from the Texans. American government agrees due to intense political pressure.

Mexicans take over with a massive military force. They roam the Texans' homes day and night looking for weapons, kicking their children in the faces, arresting the men, raping the women. Texans believe the land is rightfully theirs and can't believe this is happening to them after the years of being loyal Americans. They also refuse to leave their 'homeland.' Furthermore, America begins to supply the Mexicans with tanks, fighters, and weapons of all sorts. The Mexicans won't leave because they have the power and a historical claim to the land. My question is...would anybody blame the Texans if they started terrorizing? Should they just leave? They really have no other option other than submission.

This analogy, like all analogies, isn't completely accurate but it is a pretty strong parallel. Please don't respond with...'America would never allow it' because that's not the point. The point is that people have a strong attachment to the places they live in and a strong hatred for those who will take it and oppress them. There can be compromise in the Middle East but it will have to entail a concession of land and sovereignty to the Palestinians.

I don't care about either group more than the other, although I usually root for underdogs when I don't have a favorite. I have read much literature by both groups, however, and realize that the sticking point is and always will be the land. Neither group will live landless in peace so the only solutions are:

1. Split the land
2. Eliminate one of the groups
3. Continue to fight

The third option will include terrorism, as it is the only form of fighting available to the Arabs. By supporting Israel's lack of concessions, we are thus creating/causing terrorism.