War and America

[Timebuilder]

I will be eager to hear what your opinion is as you mature.

I know that many of the beliefs I cherished turned out to be dust, in the wind.

Your opening paragraph,

If everybody would just back off with the whole 'my god is better than your god' thing, this whole discussion would be unnecessary. The entire middle-east conflict is based on religious zeal and here we are debating the value of Jesus versus the Jewish. Are you two, with your Christian rhetoric, any better than the Muslims with theirs?

is based upon a premise, or more acurately, a "set" of premises.

This set is loosely characterized by the following concepts:

That god is a construct of "man", and that the ideas that man has about god are universally false. Therefore, you comment about "my god is bettter than your god", and the question of "is my rhetoric any better than the muslims' rhetoric."

Now suppose that there is a sovereign God, and that there is the availabliity of His word in the Bible. Further suppose that He states that He is right, and everybody else is wrong. Just suppose, for a moment.

At that point, we aren't talking about rhetoric anymore, are we?

Now you have a decision to make. Or not. Your choice. Your question really is this:

Can I afford to be wrong?

 

[surplus1]

I really don't want to join this debate but as you continue, I would recommend that you consider the difference between Judaism and Zionism. It might add some perspective.

 

[172driver]

Couldn't one just as easily suppose that his word is spoken in another book or that all of the books are full of bull? What makes the bible any more believable than the Koran? Why would you assume that being a believer in the bible will save you any more than any other religious text? It's silly. It's way too common. It's the cause of world unrest since the time of Christ.

If the Koran ends up being the true word, I will be in a better position than you for not choosing sides. Same goes for the bible. I believe in a spiritual force who is not man deitized or a bringer of evil against nonbelievers. I will guess Christ believed the same, being the peaceful, loving fellow that he was. And, no, I don't believe he was god's son. I do believe that a strong spiritual force existed within him (you may call it god) as it does within all of us. The reason he was so special is because he believed in this force, loved all comers no matter their beliefs, spread the joy to all he touched.

Remember, it was man who created the bible and the Koran. It is man's interpretation of god's word that you are trying so hard to follow, as are the Muslims. It is also man who penned the consequences you threaten me with. If you want to believe it all literally, that's fine with me, but I don't see why nations must continue to fight wars over different interpretations of the same spiritual force. Some of us believe it is much more important to embrace each others' differences as true spirituality is gained through love...NOT HATE!!

People also used to write about the flat earth, the sun orbiting the earth, criticized evolution, and on and on... The church executed those who dared argue with god's almighty word. The 'timebuilders' of that era stood around nodding at the gallows and saying...i can't afford to go against the church. What if god and his interpreters are right? I'd be in deep doo-doo. We mustn't question the word. Luckily, some people had the cajones to question the interpretation of god's will.

We no longer believe these things because they were proven wrong. The existence of god is not likely to ever be proven or disproven, especially to those looking outside themselves for it. So, we are reduced to an argument based on faith and faith alone. I do not deny nor question the existence of god. I simply have a different interpretation than the books. I don't believe god comes with a doctrine, a set of rules, an army of holy men to spread his word.

Timebuilder, I was impressed with your writing last time we did a thread together. That last argument seemed a touch disjointed though. Maybe you care to try again? Why should we all follow a set of rules set down by people in a time long past? What makes you have such faith that these are god's words and not just ignorant theories of man like the others I named? Do you really think I will burn in he11 because my beliefs are different than yours? Does your god condone violence in furtherance of his word? Why are there more nonbelievers than believers in the world...in the bible that is? Will they all burn for it?

 

[Typhoon1244]

Holy cow! I know I've been away for a few hours, but I'm almost certain this used to be a thread about American perceptions of war and patriotism. How did "God" get in here?

Okay, where to start...?

Enigma, you're still more interested in finding hidden meanings in my posts than actually reading what I have to say. I'm going to try one more time to explain this "black widow" business. I found Rumpletumbler's arachnoid analogy interesting, and I was attempting to draw on it to make this point: there are peoples in this world who see the U.S. as a threat to their independence and sovereignty. Not everyone on the planet pictures John Wayne in shining armor on horseback when they hear the words "United States of America." Osama bin Ladin's motivation for attacking us is just one piece of evidence of this phenomenon.

I shouldn't have to defend my feelings about my country to hyper-conservatives like yourself. There's not enough time. Think I'm trying to start a flame war? Hey, I'm not the one indiscriminately impugning peoples' patriotism.

On to more recent events...

Obviously, the weapons inspectors have shifted gears since I began this thread. It's now clear that Iraq is indeed witholding either several W.M.D.'s and/or the materials to construct them. This is an intolerable situation that needs to be corrected...by whatever means necessary. Saddam and his regime need to go away. Period. I'm teriffically annoyed that every administration since 1991 has failed to take care of this problem.

Saddam has apparently had the capability for some time to hurt us. The September 11th strike should have opened the doors wide. I wonder why no Iraqi-manufactured weapons have been employed on U.S. soil yet. What are they waiting for? They certainly have the capability...it only take one guy with a briefcase full of vials to poison a thousand or more people. Who's going to stop it, the TSA? Don't get me wrong; I don't want it to happen...but the delay is puzzling. Does Saddam have bigger fish to fry?

This may be what is causing Americans--and others--to disbelieve that Iraq is a threat. An awful lot of people are probably thinking, "if Saddam really had a weapon of mass destruction, he'd have used it by now."

Anybody got any ideas as to why Saddam hasn't hit us yet?

Some last thoughts...

I'm getting the sense that several of you think being anti-war is indeed being anti-American. Nobody's really explaining what the reasons behind that are...I still think it goes back to Vietnam. Timebuilder says that part of being an American means marching in lockstep with my government and my fellow citizens. I'll bet you didn't feel that way when Clinton began pushing for freedom of homosexuality in the military...or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe all of you were standing shoulder to shoulder with Bill and Hillary and the nations' gay community, shouting, "yes, this is what the country needs!" ...but I doubt it. (Don't tell me, let me guess: you can't be gay and be an American.)

If I believed that America always collectively reaches the right decision in any given situation, I would find this concept of blind unity easier to swallow...but there've been too many times when this country was just wrong. And if no one had the freedom to speak up and say "no, I can't support this"...then it wouldn't be America, would it?

Enigma said something that caught my attention. He spoke of our nation's "moral obligation to our fellow man." I personally believe in the idea that we all owe something to each other. Whether or not this obligation should guide our foreign policy is an issue I'm not qualified to address. I do know, however, that a lot of the people who would have us march to Baghdad to fulfil our moral obligation are the same people who don't lift a finger to help their fellow men right here in the U.S. I haven't noticed the military deploying to, say, Michigan to feed the hungry and clothe the poor.

And I'm not pointing fingers because I'm no better than anyone else on this score. (I didn't even give to the Fraternal Order of Police this year...)

Consistency...that's all I'm asking for.

 

[Dieterly]

"God" is as real as "Santa". It's frucking fairy tail!!! THERE IS NO "GOD"!!!!

 

[mar]

Ideas why Saddam hasn't attacked?

Uh. Yeah. 'Cause it would guarantee his immediate destruction. He's psychotic, not stupid.

This has been one of my main points all along. Saddam doesn't keep me awake at night.

On the other hand, radical muslim terrorists angry at America's support of Israel do cause me some restless sleep.

And just for the record: I'm not anti-Semitic. I have no beef with the Jewish people in Israel, the US or any other country.

I have a problem with the Israeli government. Indeed, the people of Israel are Jewish, Christian *and* Muslim.

I just wanted to make that clear.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Ideas why Saddam hasn't attacked?

...it would guarantee his immediate destruction. [Saddam]'s psychotic, not stupid.

Agreed...but I wasn't very clear. I'm not just talking about Saddam. I'm talking about his weapons, too. There've got to be a thousand muslim extremists just dying to pull the next 9/11. If Saddam is willing to supply them with W.M.D's...

...is he? Maybe Saddam just wants these things for his own protection and isn't interested in attacking the U.S. Maybe it was his intention to stay out of Osama's little jihad altogether. We already kicked hi as_ once.

Maybe you're onto something, Mar. Maybe Saddam's just not worth the trouble. (This I must ponder...)

 

[Timebuilder]

Couldn't one just as easily suppose that his word is spoken in another book or that all of the books are full of bull? What makes the bible any more believable than the Koran? Why would you assume that being a believer in the bible will save you any more than any other religious text? It's silly. It's way too common. It's the cause of world unrest since the time of Christ.

You can suppose anything that you want my friend. Based on our other threads that touch on this issue, I am virtually CERTAIN that I will not convince you of ANYTHING. I'm fine with that. Is it the cause of unrest since the time of Christ? No. Man's unwillingness to accept His word and live by is the cause, and it will continue to be that way until He puts a stop to that. Some people think that they can figure out when certain things will happen based on hiddden meanings, such as the "Bible code" book. They too, are wrong. The timetable is not for us to know.

So, to simplify: yes, any and all of what you say is possible, from the perspective of an unbeliever. That must be upsetting, indeed. I feel for ya.

As for Saddam, I am not really concerned if he is psychotic, stupid, crazy, ADHD, OCD, or FUBAR. I'm concerned at the support for terrorists, and Saddam's ability to use what he posesses for the purposes of evil. I think this situation will require action on our part, and the part of others who want to maintain a relatively normal life. I hope we are careful, creative, and decisive in choosing and delivering our decision.

I hope we have veered back on topic.

 

[Timebuilder]

Oh, one more thing, to answer this:

Why should we all follow a set of rules set down by people in a time long past? What makes you have such faith that these are god's words and not just ignorant theories of man like the others I named?

The answer is 2Timothy, 3: 16-17. It is the most concise answer.

The word "inspiration" means "God Breathed".

There. For those who pray, pray for the United States, our President, and our armed forces. May we be right, and may we be victorious.

 

[100LL... Again!]

To those who say that hussein is not currently a threat, you are DIRELY ignorant of the circumstances leading up to WWII.

Please do some research before flaming me. This attitude is EXACTLY what allowed WWII to escalate.

Churchill warned Europe for YEARS, that's right, YEARS, that Hitler was not to be trusted.

Those fools in France and the rest of Europe fell all over themselves to kiss his a$$.

Churchill warned them, and they DID NOT LISTEN. They were all waaaaay too sophisticated for that nasty 'war' stuff.

If France and the other European countries would have held the line on Hitler, we would never have had the Holocaust.

And - AND - If we would never have had the holocaust, there would have been no need to create a safe place for Jewish people. Anyone remember why Israel got created in the 40's? Because Europeans were too anti-semitic to let them live in peace. This mentality created the current middle east situation as well.

I'm sure Churchill took a he11 of a beating over not playing nice with Hitler. Before long, it was too late, and it was time for Americans to die for the freedoms of other nations that now want to pretend they are better than us. ONE MAN warned them all. The real problem with being a great leader (Churchill, Reagan, Thatcher, etc.) is that 1t is likely that you lead a nation that is probably too stupid too see how right you are.

Are you all ready to be nominated for the Chamberlain Award?
I'm not, so let's go get hussein's sorry a$$, and get this over with, and spare the of spineless, liberal hand-wringing.

hussein has used BRUTAL, CRUEL, inhuman force against his own people and kuwait. H has stated that he wants to destroy Israel (which he will NEVER succeed at doing). He has the weapons. If you need more proof than that, you are beyond reason.