• NC Software is having a Black Friday Sale Event thru December 4th on Logbook Pro, APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook, Cirrus Elite Binders, and more. Use coupon code BF2020 at checkout to redeem 15% off your purchase. Click here to shop now.
  • NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

Wake from a Ted Airbus

exchexflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2003
Posts
69
Total Time
5500
I fly the erj and I was taking off out of ORD last week just after an A319. Approximately 200 feet we experienced wake turbulance that rolled us to the right aprroximately 30 degrees. I had full left aileron just to keep from rolling over. I've had wake turbulance before but never this severe and so close to the ground. Everyone knows how these big airports launch aircraft one after another even before the previous aircraft has rotated. Please don't preach to me that I should have waited a little while before starting the take off roll. ATC seems to be on top of things when taking off behind a heavy or a 757, but they don't give any concern to the midsize aircraft. Wake is a serious thing even if it is not a 747. I can write an unusual incident report and talk to my chief pilot and the faa, but what will become of this? NOTHING! Everyone seems to be in the reactive mode instead of a proactive mode. There obviously needs to be an accident before anything is changed. If we waited 2 minutes after every aircraft, just think how many delays there will be. What's a good solution? I read this site alot and know that many people write meaningless things, please only reply if you have some good input. I know I'm not the only one experiencing this, give your examples and inputs on how we can resolve this problem. My solution is to wait to takeoff until atc yells at me. What is your solution?
 
J

jjetpilot

Enjoy the RIDE.......WWWWWWWWEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

It is ORD.........deal with it and be ready after every takeoff/approach. In this situation it looks like you did......good job man.

Consider it an unscheduled beef seatbelt check :)
 

flying4food

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Posts
171
Total Time
5000
I know what you mean, on approach it's easier, fly a dot high, unless the preceeding aircraft is doing the same thing. On take-off, I've found that immediately after rotation I will drift 5 or so degrees off runway heading, upwind. The only caveat is with parallel runways, use common sense and judgement.

When I flew turbo-props, it was much easier, I could almost always rotate before they did and out climb them to a certain point, by then it was time to turn. For what it's worth!!!
 

labbats

Zulu who?
Joined
May 25, 2003
Posts
2,593
Total Time
9000
They did the same thing to us a couple weeks ago, but with less scary results. MD-80 hadn't rotated, and we were cleared to go. Captain boosts up the plane, and we feel the wake nibbling at us all the way up to 7000. Same turns, same climb as them, and we were very heavy with no x-wind to help. Not a good feeling indeed. But that's ORD I guess.
 

propjockey

Supreme Commander
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
245
Total Time
4500
I suspect A320 wake is stronger than a lot of people expect. I have also been rolled pretty hard by an Airbus on takeoff. My worst encounter with Airbus wake was crossing it perpendicular in the 1900 one time. It was one hard WHAM! and then it was over. It felt like we had driven through a ditch.

The dot high is a good idea -- I do it myself behind a heavy or a 757 -- but don't count on it to keep you out of trouble. Last week going into SFO in the CRJ700, we were rolled a bit by a 747 who was apparently also a dot high for a while.
 

another cfii

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 1, 2002
Posts
540
Total Time
5000+
Last month cruising at FL320, smooth and all, suddenly hit a wake by a crossing 747's wake about 20 miles ahead of us. I thought we got hit by a Mack truck!! On the same flight, level on approach at 12k, same wake, this time by a 757. Spilled water on my pants twice in one day!
 

ex208driver

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 13, 2002
Posts
48
Total Time
6400 +
Just for reference on the dot high, do you also do it in imc. I feel like everyone but me and a few others does this but when I bring it up, the answer is always the same. No, they fly the glideslope in imc, so I will ask them why the difference is between vfr and imc.
 

91100 100 set

to the book
Joined
Dec 28, 2003
Posts
694
Total Time
12,000
ex208driver said:
why the difference is between vfr and imc.

Thats easy, the flight director won't give you guidance for a dot high and most people are too lazy to try to hand fly a raw data approach (or their company prohibits it).
 

blzr

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 6, 2002
Posts
1,502
Total Time
5500
Try putting the guy ahead of you just outside the 3 mile circle on the tcas. seems to work for me. Also, I have stayed on g/s and just rode the loc a dot either way. Again, just use good judgement.
 

Ralph Cramden

Took the Red Pill
Joined
May 7, 2005
Posts
351
Total Time
2much
Good 'ole ORD. Greatest controllers in the world who really know how to push the tin out of town. When I was flying there (Shorts, F27, Dash8 & CRJ) I got thumped almost daily. Most of the time it was crossing runway takeoffs which will get your attention but not too serious. Climbout following in trail wake was much more prevelant in the CRJ due to similar performance but the controllers have always accomodated me when I asked to parallel upwind on climb to get out of the rough. Just ask.

Now I'm in the A319. Don't think this is just a "little plane following big plane" problem. A 757 or 777 can give a wild ride when you are in their wake no matter what you fly. The bus is fly by wire joystick flown and will return to your set pitch & bank even when being hand flown. However fifi's response to the upset is quite slow and by the time she starts the recovery you have put in your own correction input and the fun begins. We call it "stirring the pot".

Just visualise the other guy's wake and try to stay above and/or upwind. The really fun stuff is on calm days with high humidity when you can actually see the vorticies bounce off the runway and back up at you when on short final following a big guy.
 

chperplt

Registered User
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
4,123
Total Time
.
No, they fly the glideslope in imc, so I will ask them why the difference is between vfr and imc

The difference is in the stabilized approach criteria your company has set up. You're probably violating that policy if you fly 1 dot high in IMC.
 

OPECJet

1700
Joined
Nov 7, 2003
Posts
2,312
Total Time
5K
I've been hit with a bus wake on an arrival. Pretty big jolt.

I can't remember which RJ, but I got a hard 20 deg roll following one on an arrival as well. Apparently size doesn't matter.

Nice job with the recovery. Dam glad you're here telling the story.
 

Cardinal

Of The Kremlin
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
2,308
Total Time
K's
This is just great. Guys in CRJ700s and A319s all flying "a dot high." What about the guy behind you (me) that weighs in at 1/5 of your MTOW?

So the 757 is flying a dot high for the 747 he's following. The A319 is flying two dots high for the 75's wake. The CRJ is three dots high to avoid the Airbii vortices, and the Beech behind 'em all will simply pitch twenty degrees nose up, point the thermal tiles at the earth, and reenter, space shuttle style, in a glowing cloud of plasma.
 

low-key

Get on the plane BA!
Joined
Aug 25, 2002
Posts
145
Total Time
XII
DFW was always a good time when they would launch you just as a Mad Dog was rotating, good wake ride from the 80. Hit by a 320 on T/O outta IAD a while back, another good wake ride. giddy up!
 

248to2.8

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 12, 2004
Posts
187
Total Time
8000
Flying in a Beech the other day I flew right through a NWA airbus wake. BAM! Kick it up a notch. As the passenger were getting off a couple asked what that was. Told them I think I hit a racoon.
 

FlyChicaga

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 23, 2002
Posts
862
Total Time
4500
Cardinal said:
This is just great. Guys in CRJ700s and A319s all flying "a dot high." What about the guy behind you (me) that weighs in at 1/5 of your MTOW?

So the 757 is flying a dot high for the 747 he's following. The A319 is flying two dots high for the 75's wake. The CRJ is three dots high to avoid the Airbii vortices, and the Beech behind 'em all will simply pitch twenty degrees nose up, point the thermal tiles at the earth, and reenter, space shuttle style, in a glowing cloud of plasma.

Hilarious, yet true. I've jumpseated on B737s where the crew flew 1/2 to 1 dot high behind a B777. That made me wonder what was going on behind if an RJ or turboprop was flying ON the glideslope.

I think training and knowledge in the physics of wake turbulence, as well as recovery techniques, is much more important than destabilizing an approach to try and avoid it. Unless you know for a fact the flightpath of the heavy in front of you, wake turbulence if often a mystery. It's invisible, dangerous, and it's location can't always be accurately predicted. I've been in the Saab at times when a B757 landed at MDW a little passed the touchdown zone. Should we have landed even farther past the touchdown zone on that 4925 ft rollout to avoid possible wake turbulence?

I'm usually more worried about it on departure. After all, "heavy, clean, and slow."
 

MJG

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 2, 2003
Posts
580
Total Time
7000+
Funny thing is that the geniouses at NASA are now advising that we all "fly the glideslope like normal" instead of a dot high. Apparently their latest research indicates that there is no advantage to flying up a dot to avoid a previous aircraft's wake. Sorry I'm still not buying it. While I agree that it is difficult to predict where/when you might encounter someone's wake, I still feel better sitting a dot high.

Worst encounters I've had are behind the big 73's -800's and -900's. Those things should be given the same seperation as 757.
 
Top