visual approaches.......

[pilotguy143]

All-


i'm hopefully going to be starting my first 121 ground school in a few weeks, and I had a few questions.

According to several good friends who are currenly flying jets, the visual approach is the hardest thing to do (according to my one friend it is comarable to a V1 cut).

My question is this. besides using the VNAV stuff (not sure on how that stuff works yet) is there a better way to stay ahead of the plane doing a VAP?



thanks for the advice,


Pilotguy143

 

[another cfii]

Try looking outside, it works the best!

But seriously, you have all the tools you have in the cockpit to plan ahead... ie ILS loc/gs, a little mental math.. (i.e. by the beginning of ALS, you're supposed to be at 200 agl.)

I'm sure there's more than a few, but that should get you thinking.

Good luck in your training.

 

[imacdog]

Use backup guidance (either ILS or FMS data) for the glideslope to help you out. If you are descending in from a little ways out, have the ILS or FMS set up for the runway, set the altitude bug to the FAF altitude, aim for the FAF, and plan on being at FAF alititude when you get there. That will set you up for a nice easy final approach. This should work well while you are getting used to the plane. The visual approach isn't difficult, but it is a little different than what you are used to considering the speed difference in the plane. During sim training just configure the aiplane a little early to help slow down and give you time to get set up.

 

[Baronman]

Unfortunately visual approaches aren't taught frequently as part of a typical Part 91 curriculum. So this does cause some problems when transitioning to the 121 world when 99% of the approaches you fly are either ILS or Visual.

Most important is start "seeing" what a 3 degree glidepath looks like. Try to fine tune your sight picture against either a glideslope indication on your ILS or via a visual indicator (PAPI etc..)

In addition consider descent planning, 3.3 miles to lose 1000' altitude. Knowing this you can help judge if you are high/low during a visual.

Example- If I'm 5 miles from the end of the RWY at 2000' above field elevation I know I'm a little high, time to throw out more drag/reduce power. How do I figure? Well with 2000' to lose I should be about 6-7 miles out. If I'm only 5 miles out then I'm a bit high.

Learning when to configure will also allow you to achieve a "stable" visual approach. I'm sure you'll learn about this in ground school and sim training.

Example- I know in the ERJ that if I'm descending on a 3 degree (visual or ILS) and I'm doing 180kts that if I reduce the power at about 1700'AGL I can slow and be fully configured by 1000'AGL. If I'm doing 200kts and descending then I should probably start to slow at about 2000'AGL.

Hope some of this helps

 

[Baronman]

Unfortunately visual approaches aren't taught frequently as part of a typical Part 91 curriculum. So this does cause some problems when transitioning to the 121 world when 99% of the approaches you fly are either ILS or Visual.

Most important is start "seeing" what a 3 degree glidepath looks like. Try to fine tune your sight picture against either a glideslope indication on your ILS or via a visual indicator (PAPI etc..)

In addition consider descent planning, 3.3 miles to lose 1000' altitude. Knowing this you can help judge if you are high/low during a visual.

Example- If I'm 5 miles from the end of the RWY at 2000' above field elevation I know I'm a little high, time to throw out more drag/reduce power. How do I figure? Well with 2000' to lose I should be about 6-7 miles out. If I'm only 5 miles out then I'm a bit high.

Learning when to configure will also allow you to achieve a "stable" visual approach. I'm sure you'll learn about this in ground school and sim training.

Example- I know in the ERJ that if I'm descending on a 3 degree (visual or ILS) and I'm doing 180kts that if I reduce the power at about 1700'AGL I can slow and be fully configured by 1000'AGL. If I'm doing 200kts and descending then I should probably start to slow at about 2000'AGL.

Hope some of this helps

 

[gnx99]

I was flying Barons before I went 121, so the speed changes going into the Saab weren't really much faster. The hardest part was planning an approach when you're cleared from 8,000' and 250 knots and 15 miles out (for example). It was just awkward being that high and that fast and making a smooth descent and speed reduction. Then again the Saab will drop like a rock if you need it too. Jets may be a whole different story.

It's really just takes some practice to know how high is too high, or how fast is too fast, etc. You get used to it, just like any other plane. I flew into a lot of uncontrolled fields though, so I got lots of practice.

 

[Huck]

My company requires that at a thousand feet AGL you be on speed, on descent path, power set, fully configured, and checklists complete. Sounds a little restrictive but might not be a bad idea when you're starting out.

And always, ALWAYS know how far you are from the runway. I use the fix page on the MD11 when there is no DME. Below about 10,000, cross-check altitude/distance using the 3 to 1. This little "old-school" technique sounds superfluous in a glass cockpit, but it would have saved a bunch of crews in the past. DON'T rely on the distance to go from the FMS - that's not always a straight line distance, and it will lie to you.....

 

[wickedpilot]

I think visual approaches are difficult at first for a couple of reasons:

1. The limited exposure to visuals in the sim. (I probably only did 3 or 4 during my sim training)

2. The faster rate at which things move and sometimes unpredictable nature of visuals. ex. short approaches, behind the a/c, or sheer lack of experience in a jet.

My advice: if you ever get ahead on one of your sim lessons or find yourself with some extra time left over just ask the instructor to put you 10 miles out from the runway and practice. Because if you training regiment was anything like mine, it calls for ILS after ILS after ILS.

And as for it being comparable to a V1 Cut, I disagree. The V1 Cut is only a matter of stepping on the correct rudder and executing the profile.

 

[TAWS]

It depends on the aircraft you're flying. A good rule of thumb is to cross the marker at a target a/speed and config e.g. EMB 170, 210 kts and flaps 1.

This will help until you get used to the aircraft and the more experienced guys give you pointers. After a while, you'll start noticing when ATC is leaving you high/fast, then you'll instinctively slow/ask for lower/start configuring.

 

[One Wing Low]

If you can do it in a 172, you can do it in a jet.
You get the instrument stuff drilled into you so hard in the sim, you forget the first basic rule that you learned, look out the window.

 

[geardown]

One thing alot of new guys don't think to do is SLOW DOWN. If things are happening too fast or you are too high etc. just slow down and give yourself more time before you reach the airport. There will be plenty of time to go fast in a jet once you are more comfortable in it.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Double post. sorry

 

[FirstMate]

All good advice.

My much less technical advice would be to not think about it too much. Some things come with a little practice and experience and I believe this is one of them. Do it a hand full of times on the line and you'll get into your own groove of when and where you execute each phase of the approach.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

The dreaded visual approach. You see the airport out there? Ok. land this here A/C on that airport. Any questions? Well I can tell you that this is the area that people have the most trouble with. So it isn't that simple and there are a couple of additional reasons as to why.
In top of the facts previously stated that the training really doesn't train you to fly the A/C but rather manage the automation. And the fact that the training is not really designed to fly the airplane in a real environment (20 mile finals, 5000 ft. downwind's and visuals from there, speeds and configurations that are not exactly like the profiles) but rather the training is designed to pass the check ride.

Most of the OE applicants that I come across haven't flown jets before but rather Indians, king airs, 1900's and that sort of contraption. Evidently speeds are different but also your visual cues are different. In most of the A/C's you have flown to this point there is some kind of visual aid that works in coordination with your peripheral vision, engine cowlings to your side, The nose of the airplane in front of you. But in jets, there is nothing that would give you pitch and roll information trough your peripheral vision because there is no structure of the A/C that is in your line of view. You actually have to put you head against the side window and look backwards to see the last third of your wing. So you are sitting in a fishbowl up in the front without any of the A/C's structure in sight. So there is no real visual approach in a jet, but rather a blended visual/instrument approach (Constantly shifting inside and outside) One of the things you have to correct early on is thrust lever management, If you find yourself correcting power more than 2%N1 at a time, try to correct your pitch first when your speed is drifting up or down. The secret to a stable approach is pitch control and establish a scan of the instruments to obtain the information you need and learn to manage that information. Try to establish a pattern that works for you (Speed- outside, ADI-outside, VSI-outside, CDI-outside, Alt.-outside, Power- outside) You will find that if you become systematic about scanning the information, by default. You will become systematic about corrections and will be able to analyze the data better.

Have fun during training, I hope that helps

 

[Mongolikecandy]

Turn off the auto pilot. That may sound counter-intuitive since you will be new in the airplane but I found I had more trouble shooting visual approaches with the auto pilot on because I was doing two things at once; managing the approach and managing the auto pilot. Trying to get the turn from downwind to final correct while slowing, configuring and descending using the auto pilot can become cumbersome if you aren't used to it. I finally had a captain tell me to turn it off because I was losing sight of the big picture... outside.

 

[OldManPilot]

every mile away from the runway = 300 ft on the RA...

5 mi final.. 1500 RA..
4 mi 1200 RA..

etc...

easy as that

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

One reason there are so many pilots having difficulty with the Viz approach is the training world. In the sim, the cirriculum is very controled and jam packed! The FAS mandates approaches both all engine and SE. Very little time is given for extra's...

So if you go missed approached what flight path would fly? Published Missed approach procedure?

 

[5ontheglide]

Just drop the gear.... you'll make it.

 

[Traumahawk]

I can't believe you people are actually dissecting a visual approach...AKA flying the airplane. If you can't look at an airport and put the plane at the end of a runway without slamming into the ground early or having to go around because of height....get out of aviation.

The sim is not used to teach this nor should you expect it to. You know those 600 hours plus 100 multi you've been logging all this time....THATS your visual approach training. It's called coordination. Don't expect to know how early you can turn or how high you can stay by shooting 5 mile finals all day long either. This is your chance to actually FLY the plane in the most basic sense....why would you ask how to shoot a traffic pattern??

And who, while giving advice to a newbie, compares a visual to a V1 cut!?!?

T-hawk

P.S. Are you the same people who would create checklists for aerobatic manuevers?? Ok...in a roll...u need 3.4 pounds of side force with the nose 26.487 degrees up (add a degree of pitch for every degree celcius above standard temperature)................

 

[svcta]

all good advice so far, here's something to add(or expand upon):

In the sim there is almost no reason to ever accelerate beyond 200kts. They'll have you get to 250 for a little air work, but even after a couple of type ratings and recurrents I always slow back down to 200. There's just no reason to be going anywhere that fast when you're trying to run checklists and get back to the airport. Also, never let the instructor rattle you outof your groove; if you're running a checklist then complete it before you do anything else. Don't reach for a pen, don't get concerned with radios, if you want more time in a hold ask for it, get configured early and stay that way. Sometimes it can get quiet and almost boring when you're way ahead of things between fixes. I love it that way.

And the most important thing that's been said here so far::: When you start getting behind the autoflight turn off the autopilot and fly the airplane. I've seen it in the sim and in the world. It's really esay to get bogged down in making the autopilot do what you want it.