visual approaches.......

[Mongolikecandy]

I can't believe you people are actually dissecting a visual approach...AKA flying the airplane. If you can't look at an airport and put the plane at the end of a runway without slamming into the ground early or having to go around because of height....get out of aviation.

The sim is not used to teach this nor should you expect it to. You know those 600 hours plus 100 multi you've been logging all this time....THATS your visual approach training. It's called coordination. Don't expect to know how early you can turn or how high you can stay by shooting 5 mile finals all day long either. This is your chance to actually FLY the plane in the most basic sense....why would you ask how to shoot a traffic pattern??

And who, while giving advice to a newbie, compares a visual to a V1 cut!?!?

T-hawk

P.S. Are you the same people who would create checklists for aerobatic manuevers?? Ok...in a roll...u need 3.4 pounds of side force with the nose 26.487 degrees up (add a degree of pitch for every degree celcius above standard temperature)................

So, how exactly do you keep your sh!t from stinking?

 

[Dumb Pilot]

I can't believe you people are actually dissecting a visual approach...AKA flying the airplane. If you can't look at an airport and put the plane at the end of a runway without slamming into the ground early or having to go around because of height....get out of aviation.

I share your basic feelings. But the reality is another, I can tell you after over two years of giving OE that folks have a real problem with visual approaches as basic as it is. And is NOT the 500 hour folks exclusively either.

 

[GeorgeTG]

All good advice above

the 60 to 1 rule works great. If someone is having difficulties flying a visual, they are probably also so far behind that doing math is not gonna work ;-)

Set yourself some "ballpark" gates:

- 30NM out = 10,000 AFE
- 10NM out = 3,000 AFE
- 3NM out = 1,000 AFE

if there's a LOC with DME or a VOR on the field there's your distance...

When you're trying to descend use high rates early on, don't be shy...
Ballpark again: try not to exceed 1/2 of your altitude as a descent rate.

at 6,000 AFE go ahead and use 3,000 fpm, but don't try that at 2,000 AFE

The 1,000 ft Marker on the runway is your aimpoint.
Find the "magic spot" in your aircraft -- it's easy just fly a stabilized approach on speed, on glideslope (use the autopilot if you must) and look how high above the glareshield you see the aimpoint.

In most planes it will be about a hand width up from the glareshield.

This is the most important thing:

DON'T LET THE AIMPOINT MOVE.

Rememberbjects with no relative motion will collide...here that's a good thing.

And I do agree turn off the Autopilot, especially if you are new.

Cheers
George

 

[C-141/C-5]

Ok guys, here is the SECRETS

1 secret) Look at your ground speed ex: 360kts
Then look at your current altitude ex: 28,000'
Then look at the field elevation or your level off altitude ex: 1000'
Then look at your DME ex: 54 NM
take 360/60=6 miles a minute you are traveling over the ground, so this means the field is 9 minutes away. You have to lose 27,000' in 9 minutes which equates to a 3000'per min descent rate.

2 secret) Another technique is: Take the altitude you are at 28,000' take the altitude you need to get to 1000' get the difference 27,000' multiply 27 by 3 = 81, so at 81 miles out you should start a descent to establish a 3 degree glide path. For every 10kts of tailwind add 1 mile to the initiation. Ex: 40 kt tailwind the descent should be started at 85 miles. Also keep in mind runway direction. If it is opposite from your current heading then you can delay the decent. On the contrary, if it is the same direction then add 10-15 miles to the initiation of the descent

How fast do you descend??? Use secret 1 to get you descent rate

3 secret)Rule of thumb: 30nm from the field you should be at 10,000'AFE 250kts
15nm from the field you should be at 5000'AFE 200kts

If you are higher than this you have too much energy. If you are lower than this you have too little energy

4 secret) Final approach is the simple 3-1 rule ex field elevation 1000' you are at 8NM you should be at 3400' or 2400'AFE if you are higher than this you are too high if you are lower than this you are too low.

Descent rates on final take you GS ex: 140Kts divide by 2 = 70 add multiply by 10= 700, so 700 on you VSI will be you descent rate

Try it out tell me what you think. The FMS and Flight Director are great, but every pilot should have sound knowledge and application of these techniques beacause how else do you check the autopilot or stump the Captain next to you who has no clue how to truly understand how to fly???

How I use these techniques?

First for initial descent i use secret 2. This way I have it figured in my head what ATC is planning to do or not to do. If I see that my DME is inside of my 3-1 then I either pimp ATC for a descent or I realize my descent will have to be greater than a 3-1.

Second while on decent I use secret one to adjust my descent rates

third I plan my descent to be at 10,000 30NM 250kts
then 5000 15nm 200kt

fourth on final I use secret four backing it up by the ILS

 

[LoneWolf]

I also found visual approaches to be a challenge when I started flying jets. The one that tightened the sphincter the most was the visual at night, on downwind, with the runway on the opposite side of the aircraft to me. To add to the fun the controllers will sometimes clear you while your at 11,000 feet abeam the numbers.

I have learned a few techniques over the years:

Know your distance to go to the airport (don't rely on the number the FMS gives you) and get the plane slowed down in time. It can be hard to go down and slow down at the same time and still be stabilized.

If you are on downwind you have about 5-7 miles to the threshold if you turn a three mile base leg. At 5-7 miles out on an ILS you should be getting fully configured for landing and complete the before landing checks. Same here.

If the land is pretty flat below you the radar altimeter can help. Try to have the aircraft at about 900' agl when you turn a 3 mile final.

Have the ILS tuned in if the runway has one. The glide slope should come in somewhere on the base leg and can give you an idea of your vertical position.

If your not comfortable, give yourself some more room.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

One thing alot of new guys don't think to do is SLOW DOWN.

Ding ding ding ding ding. We have a winner, folks.


Also, check the label below the spoiler lever. It says SPOILERS. In case you don't know what that means, I'll be nice and inform you now that doesn't mean that it's a SPEED BRAKE lever.

Thanks.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

every mile away from the runway = 300 ft on the RA...

5 mi final.. 1500 RA..
4 mi 1200 RA..

etc...

easy as that

Well, I tried this in Colorado yesterday, and I must admit, I've never heard so many EGPWS lights and sirens. I almost hit a nice big mesa using this technique. I shall not recommend it.

 

[30West]

What would Brian Boitano do?

 

[dogman]

Here's the easiest way. Configure early. Cross the FAF at the publishished altitude on the IAP. Look out the window and descend at at the vertical rate that's published on the IAP respective to your ground speed.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Cross the FAF at the publishished altitude on the IAP. Look out the window and descend at at the vertical rate that's published on the IAP respective to your ground speed.

Shouldn't you be at pattern altitude on a visual approach?

 

[shamrock]

I almost hit a nice big mesa using this technique.

Was it one of those America West/USAirways 90 seaters?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Was it one of those America West/USAirways 90 seaters?

Wait a minute...

 

[buscap]

Don't worry bout it

Don't sweat the visuals. They will most likely not be a part of your 121 training. The circle to land is about the closest you'll get and you may not do it as an FO.

Visuals will come during IOE. They'll come hard and fast and every freakin Captain out there will want them done a little different. Screw them!

Fact of the matter is, if you are nervous about how to do a visual approach, you shouldn't be in a 121 cockpit. But hey, this is the world we live in.

And the most important thing to remember about visuals is, just like snowflakes, no two are alike. Canned rules and equations will not get you anywhere without a FEEL for it. Only experience can do that, so heads up when the little brown-eye starts winking really fast. You should always listen to your brown-eye!!!

 

[Oakum_Boy]

My brown eye makes lots of noise. Yours too?

 

[BlackPilot628]

Drop the GEAR! I love the visual apps. You're on the downwind at 8,000ft and the controllers says, "Clrd visual app". All that means is, it's time to have fun!
Turn the Auto Pilot off and FLY THE AIRPLANE. In the E170 you can fly 250ias until a 6 mile final and be on speed/slope by 800-1000ft agl.

As someone said above, Visual apps will come to you on IOE. They're no problem.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ding ding ding ding ding. We have a winner, folks.
Thanks.

Does that make you the self appointed Game Master..... or just the bell ringer boy?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I like to ring my own bell.

 

[DrewBlows]

A lot of good advice but don't over-think it. When you don't have a lot of experience be conservative and slow down early (within reason, and don't do this in NY airspace), as you gain experience you can wait longer and longer to slow down until you are very comfortable with the characteristics of the airplane you are flying (this applies to all airplanes, not only jets). Practice, practice, practice!

Ask your Captains for advice, some will have good techniques some will have less-than-good techniques, but you will eventually develop your own technique. For instance some guys say "go 250 until you absolutely have to slow down", but others say "slow down if you are going away from the airport (downwind)". I subscribe to the latter theory, but to each his own.

Make sure you can transition between automation levels. If you usually fly visuals with full automation switch the autopilot off sometimes and use partial (flight-director on) or no automation. You don't always have to switch between automation levels, but you will have to sometime so you better know how to.

Good luck, and make sure you have fun while you are learning.

 

[svcta]

Don't sweat the visuals. They will most likely not be a part of your 121 training. The circle to land is about the closest you'll get and you may not do it as an FO.

Visuals will come during IOE. They'll come hard and fast and every freakin Captain out there will want them done a little different. Screw them!

Fact of the matter is, if you are nervous about how to do a visual approach, you shouldn't be in a 121 cockpit. But hey, this is the world we live in.[/quote=buscap;119874]

Say what? Visual approaches have been a part of every sim-based training I've ever done. As were circling approaches(even as an FO). And I disagree about the 121 quip, visuals in a jet when you've never flown one are kind of a numbers game until you've got a little time in type. And to make a pre-emptive defense: not all 121 guys have jet time, either.

 

[Captainzero1]

If you have a vasi use it
If you have an ils/GPS tune it in for vertical guidance
If you don't have any of the above - use the 3:1 rule
It isn't rocket science people.