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Virgin Awarded Love Field Gates

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scarlet said:
WHERE WERE VA/DELTA when the WRIGHT AD was in EFFECT---I ask again WHERE were they? Southwest had a thumb on them for years out of LOVE!!!!

If SW didn't stay there would be High raise building there, condos and everyone would be under AA mercy.

VA and any airline could have come to DAL anytime and fly to a neighbor state and then any where else in the USA, but they didn't want to do that to fly to LOVE then. I am not sure what VA would get out of Love...United is going to go to SFO, ORD, EWR, IAH from Dallas Love too. Southwest wanted to go to Raleigh, Charlotte, Panama City FL, MKE, BOS,SEA, ORF, IND...to COMPETE with AA out of DFW.

Hey if VA gets the gates, the traveling folks will get more options on 4 cities versus 15 cities
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The same argument could have been made about SW's growth at MDW. ATA was the dominant carrier during the remodeling and adding of capacity at the airport. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Midway_International_Airport

Business is business. Give it a rest.

Edit for clarification: SW oversaw the remodel of Love field. In addition SW backed the bonds that were used to finance the project. Airport revenues are used to repay the bonds.

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/...novation-under-budget-and-early-exec-says.ece

"...The forum demonstrated the different ways that major airport construction projects can take shape. For example, Love Field's improvements are financed by a partnership between the city and Southwest. The airline backs the bonds sold for the project, and revenue from the airport will help pay them off."

S
 
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There is no attraction or significant economic synergy in flying from DAL to OKC and then to someplace else. Southwest eked out a meager existence on those routes out of necessity and used a pricing advantage (low labor costs, no pensions, minimal work rules, etc..) to compete with network carriers.

There is, however, significant demand to fly from DAL to major cities. VA has a vastly superior product. It will get interesting down there. Too bad I don't have a dog in that fight any more...
 
The Dallas City Council met yesterday and decided to send this issue to a vote before the full City Council. I haven't heard yet when this vote will take place but I expect it to be soon. I wouldn't want to handicap which way the City Council will vote, but I would say that VX has about a 50/50 chance of getting these gates. They may even just flip a coin and tell WN and VX to call it in the air.
 
And don't forget LAZ and DCA! ;) We will most likely add more cities in the future as more planes come on line. It will be a Fantastic market for us and the consumer. Interesting how VA is "Legally" the only carrier allowed to bid on the gates (i.e. deal with AA) and yet, the city officials feel it incumbent to try and change direction. Didn't GK say in an article that they only Wanted 16 of the 20 gates at Love? They wouldn't need more than that? What is SWA so afraid of?? I mean, we only have 53 planes?? :D So Far. ;)
 
Saluki Dawg said:
The Dallas City Council met yesterday and decided to send this issue to a vote before the full City Council. I haven't heard yet when this vote will take place but I expect it to be soon. I wouldn't want to handicap which way the City Council will vote, but I would say that VX has about a 50/50 chance of getting these gates. They may even just flip a coin and tell WN and VX to call it in the air.
Click to expand...

Yeah, city council vote, that sounds familiar...

When SWA was handed the keys to Love Field (and all competition forced off the airport) they had 2 airplanes and one foot in the grave. Look at what the leg up in Dallas has meant for them. (Yes, they've worked hard. But so have a lot of airline workers) There needs to be a certain minimum competition at DAL and Virgin deserves these gates. They've worked hard and slugged it out for years; they have a good product that will sell like hotcakes against SWA. Bottom line: In full view of the last 40 years, SWA brought the least discipline of any start up airline to this industry and got the most help becoming what they are. SWA now deserves to have to sell against a product they don't match well with.

But, looks like the back room crap is happening again.
 
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Queue the black helicopters Flop.

Southwest has had a ton of help over the years, like other carriers trying to sue them to oblivion. Something about the Supreme Court but I forget. Where's Bubba.
 
redflyer65 said:
Queue the black helicopters Flop.
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Red, I know it's lost on you, but the reality is this deal stinks. Yeah, I've said a lot of stuff, but this is really happening.

Bubba is probably donning his "golden army" t shirt and renting a bus to haul your best hand wringing/clapping/waving congregation of pleaders down to Dallas city haul to try and seal the deal.
 
How much help did SWA get after 9/11?

Most airlines hemorrhage cash every few years. SWA has done a great job of taking few, if any, handouts.

And I don't even work there.
 
Palomino said:
How much help did SWA get after 9/11?
Click to expand...

When have they ever needed anything that they did not get? The WA was adjusted when/how they wanted, and now it's almost gone. Having 18 of 20 gates at Love does not jive with a fair market. What have they ever divested? When has a legacy been forced to divest something that SWA wasn't the primary benefactor?
 
Flop,

Wouldn't be cool if Continental had their own special Wright Amendment? Show me were in the history of domestic aviation has Federal Government Regulation passed to throttle back one carrier.

The biggest difference over the years between SW and other carriers has been horrible management at the legacies. But Flop would rather say it's Government kick backs.

Flop, why would we give up slots (at slot controlled airports) when we've never operated at any of them? Your logical is laughable.
 
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Flop, shouldn't you be more concerned with how United's being managed than SWA?

You aren't seriously saying that it's SWA's fault that united just posted big losses are you?
 
waveflyer said:
You aren't seriously saying that it's SWA's fault that united just posted big losses are you?
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Well of course I'm not saying that Wave. Come on! We've been discussing this for years, you know me better than that. Frankly, United might be toast. And it's [almost] equal blame between CAL & UAL. UAL never really fixed/dealt with their problems, and CAL brought a RJ/outsourcing obsessed empty suit CEO to the equation.

That being said: one big reason a legacy CEO like Anderson is the exception and not the rule is, most good leaders do not want to manage against the BS favoritism SWA receives. Potentially good airline CEOs will just go elsewhere and not be subjected to having to compete in a market that is not balanced and fair.
 
Hey flop, what about the assanine restrictions about how many gates the new terminal could have plus no international? Is that not govt/AA hinderence of your beloved competition claims. Why was everyone so afraid of opening up KDAL to whatever the market could support? Or does that only apply to the "chosen" hubs?
 
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Cool bri, then truly free it

(See flyinguy's post above)

This isn't dca. There's a lot more room, but it will still be artificially restricted

As long as Texas continues these socialistic, crony capitalist policies, we're going to lobby to get all we can get out of our headquarters.

I still find it ironic that red state Texas has these issues, while blue state California has the diverse airport system it does. No ARTIFICIAL restrictions in Orange County, Burbank, or Ontario- DESPITE SUCH PROXIMITY TO LAX.
No ARTIFICIAL RESTRICTIONS in, oakland despite just 6 air miles separating it from SFO. NONE IN SJC 35 miles south.

The fact that we restrict any flying out of any Texas airport is ridiculous. Let the markets decide.
 
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FlyinGuy said:
Hey flop, what about the assanine restrictions about how many gates the new terminal could have plus no international? Is that not govt/AA hinderence of your beloved competition claims. Why was everyone so afraid of opening up KDAL to whatever the market could support? Or does that only apply to the "chosen" hubs?
Click to expand...

Got to go back to how/why DFW was built in the first place. It was not essential, and when legacy airlines wanted back in to Love, the were denied. It wasn't open to them then, and it's not available to them now either. DOJ basically threw 3 legacies off Love in the last few months. (Delta and American/USAir) That's the reality.
 
waveflyer said:
I still find it ironic that red state Texas has these issues, while blue state California has the diverse airport system it does.
Click to expand...

It's because people are(for the most part) the exact opposite of what they most vehemently claim they are not. Texas wants big airports that they claim will be the market for all competition, then they turn around and do the opposite after a legacy creates the revenue to build it. It's like SWA and competition. You claim you're for it, the reality is that you're not. Your airline feels entitled to 90% of Love Field and to use any back room deal you can muster to get it.

I think either way on this one, you're going to lose. Get the gates: there will be a backlash. Don't get them: You get to watch Virgin thrive right under your nose.
 
Why did they throw the "3 legacies" off the property?

Because they (govt/AA) wrote that into the agreement. No airline will be allowed to fly from DAL and DFW. If they would have just repealed the stupid Wright amendment and let free competition reign, SWA would probably have the same or less gates. Then anyone could fly from and to wherever they wanted.....bit noooo, that might hurt the AA fortress. So we have what we have because of AA and politics. That is why I don't have a problem with SWA having every gate at LUV!!
 
Flopgut said:
Well of course I'm not saying that Wave. Come on! We've been discussing this for years, you know me better than that. Frankly, United might be toast. And it's [almost] equal blame between CAL & UAL. UAL never really fixed/dealt with their problems, and CAL brought a RJ/outsourcing obsessed empty suit CEO to the equation.

That being said: one big reason a legacy CEO like Anderson is the exception and not the rule is, most good leaders do not want to manage against the BS favoritism SWA receives. Potentially good airline CEOs will just go elsewhere and not be subjected to having to compete in a market that is not balanced and fair.
Click to expand...

Wait, wait wait.... your saying United sucks because any good CEO who could do the job is afraid to go against SWA?

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::rolleyes:
 
Flopgut said:
Got to go back to how/why DFW was built in the first place. It was not essential, and when legacy airlines wanted back in to Love, the were denied. It wasn't open to them then, and it's not available to them now either. DOJ basically threw 3 legacies off Love in the last few months. (Delta and American/USAir) That's the reality.
Click to expand...

Untrue, the legacies signed the agreement to leave LUV, you can't make it look like they lost something. They could easily have stayed, but they fell for the shiny new airport syndrome and signed a contract saying they would never go back.
 

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