Virgin Awarded Love Field Gates

[scoreboardII]

A better question, who should get the gates after VX fails at LUV?

 

[CX880]

I know you seem to think we will lose passengers to you, and good luck with that. Just don't be so shocked when we hope that you fail miserably, we are the ones who built Love to what it is today, against unbelievable odds. The fact is, Southwest getting the gates is best for the city of Dallas in the long run and there is plenty of proof to back up that claim.

No, competition is the best for the city of Dallas. And VA is certainly a different product than southwest which appeals to certain people, don't be so shocked when folks abandon you in favor of VA.

 

[Flopgut]

Why do you think any of us have any bearing on it at all?
Besides, I'm asking you about LA and SF

Wave: The primary offense was to not let Braniff back into Love those many years ago, not the WA. The WA restrictions that SWA had to live with were NOT the first restrictions that occurred at Love Field. See what I mean? Legacies were firstly restricted. Did anything like that ever happen In California? Or DC and NYC? Delta wants these gates so bad they'll even be happy sharing them! But they're being thrown out. That ever happen in CA?

BTW: Your boys here are really chest pounding over beat the crap out of VX. Me thinks they wouldn't be popping off like that about Delta

 

[Golden Falcon]

Southwest to be passive, he's counting wrong

The Def Leppard quote is cute...but the gates were awarded by the gubmint...this could turn interesting...

 

[humveedriver]

I hope VX gets the gates. When I eventually have to commute to Oakland they will be my bread and butter for getting to work. Do you guys put non revs in your fancy business class?

 

[Ralph Cramden]

I hope VX gets the gates. When I eventually have to commute to Oakland they will be my bread and butter for getting to work. Do you guys put non revs in your fancy business class?

No non revs in FC. It's been that way since the start. We will upgrade the top frequent flyers to FC in order to get non revs on in coach. 2 JS in front on all birds. All are welcome, just show at the gate and fill out the form. After company pilots it is first come, first served for all others. We do have a fair amount of company DFW commuters, but if DAL becomes a base that will change.

BTW, the no FC issue has never caused anyone to be left behind.

 

[madjack]

HVD, Do you know how many FAT will be above the 50% line on 1/15? From Richardson's email, DEC '14 vacancy bid ( for JAN '15) will be the first opportunity for FAT to bid LC and CP vacancy at SWA.

 

[HowardBorden]

BTW: Your boys here are really chest pounding over beat the crap out of VX. Me thinks they wouldn't be popping off like that about Delta

It was never ever going to be a situation where SWA was competing against Delta post Wright Amendment. The gates would have been way to valuable to AA to ever let Delta remain there offering competing service to AA's DFW operation. The DOJ summed this up very succinctly and I completely agree with this assessment.

"Finally, Delta's claim that it will be improperly evicted due to the divestiture is similarly unavailing. Delta currently operates one gate under a sub-lease from American that is terminable on thirty-days' notice. (Another airline, Seaport, sub-leases the otherAmerican gate.) But for the remedy, New American was likely to terminate the subleases and operate the gates itself, an outcome that Delta surely recognizes given the competitive value of the gates once the Wright Amendment restrictions expire in October of this year. Delta, therefore, never had a contractual (or other) right or expectation that it would be able to remain at the American gate. The divestiture does not change this fact."

That being said, we are at the second most favorable outcome for SWA if the gates go to Virgin. Obviously, the first most favorable option is Southwest acquiring the gates, but short of that Virgin will be a much less formidable opponent in those gates than either AA or Delta. SWA has a large bankroll at its disposal to make poaching Love traffic a very expensive proposition for Virgin. Virgin has a great product, I have flown on them many times and have always been impressed, but in the end they simply do not have the resources to engage in a lengthy fare war with Southwest out of Love. Like it or not it will all boil down to price and network size and expansiveness.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

I will still be shocked if a Dallas City Council will turn down the very business that employes more Dallas residents, and does more for the local economy than Southwest Airlines.

Well, stay away from all electrical sources for the remainder of the day!

 

[humveedriver]

DALLAS – After more than a week of formal consideration, Dallas City Manager A.C. Gonzalez said the city consented to Virgin America's sub-lease of two gates at Love Field.
Attorneys for the airline and the city worked on the fine print of the legal deal through Monday. News 8 first reported Virgin would be awarded the gates last week.
Gonzalez said the delay was not caused by competition for the gates between airlines, but rather the city working with Virgin on a compliance agreement that committed the airline to the city's noise-abatement program, clarified how any unused gate space might be made accessible to other airlines, and protects the city from possible legal expense through an indemnification clause.
"Contrary to reports, this was not a competition. While initially, The City was told to expect a collaborative process, the Justice Department eventually required American Airlines to sub-lease the Love Field gates to a chosen airline. The City was presented with the sub-lease," Gonzalez said in a statement. "Rather than simply signing the sub-lease presented to us, we took some additional time to make sure our actions would be responsible and capture the vision of the Justice Department's selected carrier."

Virgin America is sub-leasing the two gates from American Airlines through 2028. American agreed to give up its Love Field gates in a settlement with the U.S. Department of Justice so it could merge with US Airways.

The Justice Department rejected offers from Southwest Airlines and Delta Airlines to take over the gates.

Dallas-based Southwest Airlines already has 16 of the 20 gates at the new Love Field terminal. United has a long-term lease for two of them, and Virgin wants the remaining two.

Still, Southwest continued to lobby the city for the gates Virgin wanted, even though it did not have a formal contract with American to present to Gonzalez.

Last month, Virgin announced it would move its operations from D/FW Airport to Dallas Love Field this fall if it won the gates.

Though it was Gonzalez's decision to make, he still had the city council briefed on the situation last week.

Virgin is already selling tickets for flights departing from Love Field. The airline would make the move in October when the Wright Amendment expires, which would allow airlines to fly from Dallas to either coast.
"We are very pleased to have the opportunity to bring new competition to Love Field, an important airport for travelers because of its proximity to the city's central business district," said Virgin America President and CEO David Cush. "We appreciate the support of Dallas travelers and all of the Virgin America flyers and look forward to bringing a new choice to the patrons of Love Field."

Virgin pledged to add flights to New York, Washington D.C., and eventually, Chicago. It already flies to Los Angeles and San Francisco from D/FW.

E-mail [email protected]

 

[humveedriver]

HVD, Do you know how many FAT will be above the 50% line on 1/15? From Richardson's email, DEC '14 vacancy bid ( for JAN '15) will be the first opportunity for FAT to bid LC and CP vacancy at SWA.

Enough? More than 100 for certain. As vacancies open up the first few classes will prob be all former trannie Captains. Then you will prob see a 4:1 mix of tran and OSW that bypassed. Something like that anyway. I was thinking there prob wouldn't be any classes come Jan 2015. Guess I need to read the new update.

* read it; company has two months to train the top tier former AT who can hold lance or pay them Capt pay (contractual). All AT eligible to bid for any vacancy in DEC bid for FEB vacancy. There will not be a Jan vacancy.

 

[HowardBorden]

Here we go then! It looks like there will be some fare wars going on at Love.

I'm more than a little interested in seeing what United is planning in October, I highly doubt it will remain a few RJ's to Houston.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

Here we go then! It looks like there will be some fare wars going on at Love.

I'm more than a little interested in seeing what United is planning in October, I highly doubt it will remain a few RJ's to Houston.

I think you are right on the UAL plan. They have been quiet about their DAL plans so far and are certainly capable of irrational action. Good thing they only have 2 gates, so they can't start a scortched earth go everywhere 12 times a day on top of VX and WN.

As to a fare war, maybe, but in reality I think we will appeal to the passengers that would have gone out to DFW for the first class and confirmed seats more than fight for your traditional traffic. While I am sure you will branch out once the Wright restrictions are lifted, you still have well established short haul markets that will demand service. Should be interesting to see how it plays out.

 

[waveflyer]

No non revs in FC. It's been that way since the start. We will upgrade the top frequent flyers to FC in order to get non revs on in coach. 2 JS in front on all birds. All are welcome, just show at the gate and fill out the form. After company pilots it is first come, first served for all others. We do have a fair amount of company DFW commuters, but if DAL becomes a base that will change.

BTW, the no FC issue has never caused anyone to be left behind.

Yeah Ralph-
I don't have a first class seat to give you, so it's not my battle anymore.
But I, and also most of my friends at VA, think it's bullsh/t that nonrev's can't fly in first class when every other airline with a first class will.

Again- not my deal since I'm at SWA, but if I were at any of my previous carriers, I'd want a lot of reassurances virgin was putting constant pressure and making headway with mgmt to remove that sort of restriction before I'd ever want a VA employee in our first class.

Even SWA asks employees to sit in the rear of the airplane but will gladly let other airline employees up front.

As a side issue...JMO
Just like ups and fedex with international travel and prior to cass after 9/11, I get that it's not the pilots fault- but I do wish virgin guys would work on that one

The stated reason for that policy- "don't want to dilute the value of first class"- is pretty condescending to all your employees, but especially to the pilots and airlines who give you their first class anytime it's there

 

[waveflyer]

Wave: The primary offense was to not let Braniff back into Love those many years ago, not the WA. The WA restrictions that SWA had to live with were NOT the first restrictions that occurred at Love Field. See what I mean? Legacies were firstly restricted. Did anything like that ever happen In California? Or DC and NYC? Delta wants these gates so bad they'll even be happy sharing them! But they're being thrown out. That ever happen in CA?

BTW: Your boys here are really chest pounding over beat the crap out of VX. Me thinks they wouldn't be popping off like that about Delta

That's not subjective flop. Which came first?
Should braniff not be bound by the agreement it signed?

The question still remains-
Why didn't California restrict their smaller local airports when they built up LAX and SFO? Yet Texas did.
That's the crux of the situation isn't it?
Or maybe the Texas market couldn't afford these big hub airports without artificial assistance, where the California markets just let things evolve as they could be afforded?
Maybe?
Maybe one way is right and one is waaayy too socialistic?

Hey, I'm not with you on being complacent about VA-
I hope none of us take them for granted

 

[HowardBorden]

I think you are right on the UAL plan. They have been quiet about their DAL plans so far and are certainly capable of irrational action. Good thing they only have 2 gates, so they can't start a scortched earth go everywhere 12 times a day on top of VX and WN.

As to a fare war, maybe, but in reality I think we will appeal to the passengers that would have gone out to DFW for the first class and confirmed seats more than fight for your traditional traffic. While I am sure you will branch out once the Wright restrictions are lifted, you still have well established short haul markets that will demand service. Should be interesting to see how it plays out.

I disagree about the fare war. I am betting that SWA will mirror all Virgin flights with a cheaper alternative. Will that net every traveler out of Love, of course not, but it will put price pressure on making the choice.

 

[humveedriver]

I disagree about the fare war. I am betting that SWA will mirror all Virgin flights with a cheaper alternative. Will that net every traveler out of Love, of course not, but it will put price pressure on making the choice.

I've heard of this. It's called the "Virgin America Effect". They enter a new market and drive prices down.

Relax. I'm just having fun.

 

[HowardBorden]

I've heard of this. It's called the "Virgin America Effect". They enter a new market and drive prices down.

Relax. I'm just having fun.

Touche.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

Yeah Ralph-
I don't have a first class seat to give you, so it's not my battle anymore.
But I, and also most of my friends at VA, think it's bullsh/t that nonrev's can't fly in first class when every other airline with a first class will.

Again- not my deal since I'm at SWA, but if I were at any of my previous carriers, I'd want a lot of reassurances virgin was putting constant pressure and making headway with mgmt to remove that sort of restriction before I'd ever want a VA employee in our first class.

Even SWA asks employees to sit in the rear of the airplane but will gladly let other airline employees up front.

As a side issue...JMO
Just like ups and fedex with international travel and prior to cass after 9/11, I get that it's not the pilots fault- but I do wish virgin guys would work on that one

The stated reason for that policy- "don't want to dilute the value of fie rst class"- is pretty condescending to all your employees, but especially to the pilots and airlines who give you their first class anytime it's there

No arguement from me on this one Wave. But have you non revved on UAL anytime in the last decade? Ages ago their FC was exclusively paid FC and non revs, now they have a system of rewarding their mileage plus members and the upgrade list on the gate boards is usually 3 or 4 times the capacity of FC. I ride them quite often and never see any UA folks in FC anymore. As a VX driver I am lucky to get a ride in a rear middle, or up front on the ironing board.

You won't get FC at Virgin as it's always full, but you will get fed and comped movies. We treat non revs very well and welcome all. I've taken the extra flight attendant seat to get an OAL guy home. Always happy to do it, we all need to get to work & home as stress free as possible.

Another thing you won't see at VX is an OAL JS priority list. It is first come, first served, so you won't get beat out at the last minute by some guy from AA. Even internally we have first guy at the gate gets the first cockpit JS, senior guy at door close gets the second JS. This gives the junior guys a fair shot and still respects seniority. It has worked well for us.

 

[waveflyer]

I actually got first class on Ual 2 of the last 3 times. But I do know what you mean- probably a lucky streak bc I've certainly seen less availability industry wide. But all 3 were within the last year. Now that's legacy Ual- I've heard that continental is another weird airline that charges their employees a pretty good amount to sit first, and their pilots will send jump seaters to coach just bc they didn't pay- that has happened to me, but admittedly not since the merger.

I don't doubt that FC is usually full- and if it is for whatever reason- so be it- and it's still a good- albeit cramped, ride in coach. Better than ours for sure- so again not my battle-

But as a policy, is a step backward from industry standard. And doesn't the to your face "you just said that me sitting up there devalues first class??" Bother you??

I very much wish SWA would offer a first class-
As a business practice I wish they would-