Virgin America

[pilotpm]

LA. I am sorry my post was sent whilst you were replying with what is an intelligent and rationale perspective in discussions such as this. I apologize if in anyway the timing implied that I was providing a retort to your comments. I was directing them specifically toward the mean-spirited comments provided some others in this thread with reference to taking my moniker out of context.

I appreciate thoughtful insights and discussions about the industry, the effects of deregulation on the pattern bargaining process by which wage rates have been historically set, and so too the how deregulation has tended to make that process rather arcane. You see, the economic pressures brought to bear on different companies, and therefore labor, vary significantly and have rendered pattern bargaining theory useless, other than perhaps as a means for pilots to measure the respective size of their dongs, and provide some basis for people like Fubi to draw subjective comparisons in compensation as the basis for insulting others or placing blame for his lack of career fulfillment.

This of course has be exacerbated by a obvious factor that Fubi stated that the process is undertaken not by a union but a collection of disparate tribes with varying needs and levels of economic power to weild against their respective employers in their desire to set higher wage and compensation rates.

The simple fact is that unless the RLA goes away and national trade union is established that will alleviate the problems that malcontents like Fubi bemoan, the situation is what it is and whining and insulting others won't "fix" anything. The industry is what it is and angry tirades are not going to change the game.

For an historical example of the futility of ideological fights that can't be won and generally have some rather unpleasant unintended consequences, one only need to look back to the third man in the cockpit debacle. Of course there are plenty of examples...the autoworkers....railway workers etc.

It's time to quit placing blame and invent solutions. The rest is just pointless whining in the big picture.

Cheers.

Nicely said.

Slainte!

 

[hyflyin]

LA. I am sorry my post was sent whilst you were replying with what is an intelligent and rationale perspective in discussions such as this. I apologize if in anyway the timing implied that I was providing a retort to your comments. I was directing them specifically toward the mean-spirited comments provided some others in this thread with reference to taking my moniker out of context.

I appreciate thoughtful insights and discussions about the industry, the effects of deregulation on the pattern bargaining process by which wage rates have been historically set, and so too the how deregulation has tended to make that process rather arcane. You see, the economic pressures brought to bear on different companies, and therefore labor, vary significantly and have rendered pattern bargaining theory useless, other than perhaps as a means for pilots to measure the respective size of their dongs, and provide some basis for people like Fubi to draw subjective comparisons in compensation as the basis for insulting others or placing blame for his lack of career fulfillment.

This of course has be exacerbated by a obvious factor that Fubi stated that the process is undertaken not by a union but a collection of disparate tribes with varying needs and levels of economic power to weild against their respective employers in their desire to set higher wage and compensation rates.

The simple fact is that unless the RLA goes away and national trade union is established that will alleviate the problems that malcontents like Fubi bemoan, the situation is what it is and whining and insulting others won't "fix" anything. The industry is what it is and angry tirades are not going to change the game.

For an historical example of the futility of ideological fights that can't be won and generally have some rather unpleasant unintended consequences, one only need to look back to the third man in the cockpit debacle. Of course there are plenty of examples...the autoworkers....railway workers etc.

It's time to quit placing blame and invent solutions. The rest is just pointless whining in the big picture.

Cheers.

Pogue, I do not believe you can argue with the actions taken by the courts, such as in post #10, "Delta used the jetblue 190 pay rates to show the judge how over paid comair was" have helped our cause as an industry. While Alpa is a collection of committees, we can stand united whether we are nationalized or not. Currently we at Virgin are not standing up for what we are worth and that may be used one day to drive industry wages even lower.

As for the jumpseat issue. I suppose they can start or continue to try to introduce their resolutions, but as long as Alaska's JSC continues to ride on us and we continue to be invited to attend Alpa national's jumpseat convention, I really do not see their resolutions gaining any traction.

I know and understand why Fubi is mad, but you just cannot explain to the man how to share his position with any tact. The crowd has to be convinced that unionizing will be in the best interest of our long term career goals.

On a side note, I enjoy reading your posts. I wish we could all write so well as it truly is a lost art.

 

[Mud]

ALPA could stand united, but they won't. Every ALPA MEC is in it for themselves, all altruistic talk is just that. Most guys at VA have very negative feelings towards ALPA as a result. So, while organization is probably warranted if pay doesn't get seriously bumped following profitability, ALPA's presence would make that vote more difficult. The vitriol from it's current membership on boards like this would make a yes vote even harder still. And we are too small to foot the bill required for our first CBA going it alone. So talk of organization is easy until you start to look at the nuts and bolts of actually making it happen.

 

[Bruno82]

So..... How are things at Virgin America?

 

[hyflyin]

ALPA could stand united, but they won't. Every ALPA MEC is in it for themselves, all altruistic talk is just that. Most guys at VA have very negative feelings towards ALPA as a result. So, while organization is probably warranted if pay doesn't get seriously bumped following profitability, ALPA's presence would make that vote more difficult. The vitriol from it's current membership on boards like this would make a yes vote even harder still. And we are too small to foot the bill required for our first CBA going it alone. So talk of organization is easy until you start to look at the nuts and bolts of actually making it happen.

Nothing is free Mud.

Why are we so exemplary in the presentation of our product and settle for such mediocrity in our pay and benefits?

There are better ways than Alpa and, yes, we can afford it.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Why are we so exemplary in the presentation of our product and settle for such mediocrity in our pay and benefits?

Perhaps you should have asked yourself that question BEFORE you accepted employment at a non-Union carrier with substandard wages, benefits and work rules.

YOU made your bed, now lie in it...without complaint.

 

[Fins Up]

YOU made your bed, now lie in it...without complaint.

Without complaint?? We're pilots; that's what we do.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Point well taken, Fins.

 

[strobzz]

Perhaps you should have asked yourself that question BEFORE you accepted employment at a non-Union carrier with substandard wages, benefits and work rules.

YOU made your bed, now lie in it...without complaint.

Now at Alaska,did you create the union first,or the airline?Was ALPA on the property the first day of operation,or the second?

 

[Fubijaakr]

We started with one guy and his airplane as opposed to a rich foreign investor buying a bunch of airplanes and hiring pilots selfishly willing to work for substandard wages.