Virgin America petitions NMB

[Flyer1015]

Wait, wait, let me get my popcorn..........

 

[StarChecker]

You might take a hint from the Jetblue Pilot Group as to why the Union thing here has failed not once, but twice. It started with the personal attacks and lies from a very small group of very vocal pilots. It started just like these past few posts and if you keep up your senseless attacks, your outcome will be the same...

Ugh...


Speaking of company hacks.....

 

[slavenaway]

You might take a hint from the Jetblue Pilot Group as to why the Union thing here has failed not once, but twice. It started with the personal attacks and lies from a very small group of very vocal pilots. It started just like these past few posts and if you keep up your senseless attacks, your outcome will be the same...

If this stuff was going on in real discussions on the VAPA board, I might think you are right. Contrary to what you may think, the members on the VAPA board are having some very insightful discussions while maintaining a respectful atmosphere.

Most of the VA pilots don't regard FI as any authoritative entity. Most of the people on this board are quick to jump you for just about anything. One may argue that you don't need enemies if you are a registered member of FI.

I will vouch for Mark, though. He is married and not single and for anyone to suggest otherwise is playing unfair. You can make an argument, though, if a pilot sells his house in Cleveland for 100k and buys in the Bay Area while living off one salary (VA CP) he has something else paying the bills. I find it hard to believe that Ryan, Kiwi and ACA provided that something. Not that there is anything wrong with having that something...

 

[Flyer1015]

I will vouch for Mark, though. He is married and not single and for anyone to suggest otherwise is playing unfair. You can make an argument, though, if a pilot sells his house in Cleveland for 100k and buys in the Bay Area while living off one salary (VA CP) he has something else paying the bills. I find it hard to believe that Ryan, Kiwi and ACA provided that something. Not that there is anything wrong with having that something...

A working wife?

I thought Mark is married with kids. It takes two salaries to own anything liveable for a family in the SFO bay area. Lets keep it factual, that attack on Mark is inaccurate.

 

[ClrdForOption]

A working wife?

I thought Mark is married with kids. It takes two salaries to own anything liveable for a family in the SFO bay area. Lets keep it factual, that attack on Mark is inaccurate.

Sorry about that... but, remember, a cat isn't asking if it 'can haz cheeseburger' either - everything that I saw/posted was to illustrate the F&H/MWW rhetoric you should expect. But, if that's the best argument... that he's married and it's expensive to live in SFO, well... I don't know what to say.

In the end, it's not about Mark, it's about the rhetoric and the message. And the spin you can expect from management. (For instance, young people shouldn't be paying for 'old fogies' insurance... you are young and healthy - and you'll be that way forever!)

 

[LoveGun]

A working wife?

I thought Mark is married with kids. It takes two salaries to own anything liveable for a family in the SFO bay area. Lets keep it factual, that attack on Mark is inaccurate.

I'm a VX captain. We just bought a bay area house. My wife doesn't work. We have a kid and another on the way. We have had zero outside help -- no trust fund, no rich parents. The bay area is pricey, but if you are willing to give up owning a monster house, it is possible to live here on just a captain salary.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a yes vote. Our pay needs to go up. Just saying that you don't have to commute as a captain at VX. All you need to do is talk your wife into a smallish house and not be buried under car payments and credit cards.

 

[Flyer1015]

I'm a VX captain. We just bought a bay area house. My wife doesn't work. We have a kid and another on the way. We have had zero outside help -- no trust fund, no rich parents. The bay area is pricey, but if you are willing to give up owning a monster house, it is possible to live here on just a captain salary.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a yes vote. Our pay needs to go up. Just saying that you don't have to commute as a captain at VX. All you need to do is talk your wife into a smallish house and not be buried under car payments and credit cards.

Then you're probably in the East Bay, at least 1 hr or more away from SFO airport, having to cross 1 (or two) toll bridge to get to work. Anyway, what guarantee did VAPA provide about a pay increase? So far, they've only disclosed a 2-3% paycut from us for dues. When do you think you'd see a pay raise as a result of VAPA negotiations? And, do you think that would come sooner or later than the company's (almost) annual pay increase for pilots? Without leverage, there isn't much to go on. There's certainly no shortage of pilots wanting to work at VA under the current package deal, so what's to give management incentive to negotiate and agree with VAPA? I digress, though. I just don't know enough about VAPA to be able to vote yes.

 

[bocaflyer]

Then you're probably in the East Bay, at least 1 hr or more away from SFO airport, having to cross 1 (or two) toll bridge to get to work. Anyway, what guarantee did VAPA provide about a pay increase? So far, they've only disclosed a 2-3% paycut from us for dues. When do you think you'd see a pay raise as a result of VAPA negotiations? And, do you think that would come sooner or later than the company's (almost) annual pay increase for pilots? Without leverage, there isn't much to go on. There's certainly no shortage of pilots wanting to work at VA under the current package deal, so what's to give management incentive to negotiate and agree with VAPA? I digress, though. I just don't know enough about VAPA to be able to vote yes.

So far VAPA has guaranteed nothing, just like SWA, UPS, FEDEX, DELTA and UNITED unions promised nothing. They have promised to stay non-confrontational and negotiate with respect. The company has guaranteed they will purposely drag out the negotiations and that our relationship with them will suffer. The companies words got me more worried than anything VAPA has or has not said. The truth is though, nobody can guarantee anything. We all throw money at our 401K and fidelity has never guaranteed anything either. Yet we try to have a say in our future don't we?

Everyone has had differing experiences, and normally that shapes their views. I have had 3 great experiences with unions; including the dreaded IBT. Worked great for us while we needed them. The people running VA are far smarter than I am, and when they invest over a million in Ford Harrison to prevent a CBA and make a website better than any company intranet site, I can't help but thinking they know exactly why they are doing that. They are doing it because just the CHANCE to prevent the union will be CHEAPER for them than us ending up with a CBA. To me, that is managements own admission that a CBA will make my career better in the long run with VAPA. No business man will spend millions to prevent something if he knows it's not going to be a good return on his investment. Management, not VAPA has convinced me to vote yes with their reactions and words to VAPA.

Nearly every Established airline (certainly the ones we all want to work at) all needed to resort to unions historically. I don't see VAPA as anything different than the need for unions at all of the "career" airlines in north America. It's natural progression IMO. No disrespect intended because my views differ from yours.

 

[ClrdForOption]

So far VAPA has guaranteed nothing, just like SWA, UPS, FEDEX, DELTA and UNITED unions promised nothing. They have promised to stay non-confrontational and negotiate with respect. The company has guaranteed they will purposely drag out the negotiations and that our relationship with them will suffer. The companies words got me more worried than anything VAPA has or has not said. The truth is though, nobody can guarantee anything. We all throw money at our 401K and fidelity has never guaranteed anything either. Yet we try to have a say in our future don't we?

Everyone has had differing experiences, and normally that shapes their views. I have had 3 great experiences with unions; including the dreaded IBT. Worked great for us while we needed them. The people running VA are far smarter than I am, and when they invest over a million in Ford Harrison to prevent a CBA and make a website better than any company intranet site, I can't help but thinking they know exactly why they are doing that. They are doing it because just the CHANCE to prevent the union will be CHEAPER for them than us ending up with a CBA. To me, that is managements own admission that a CBA will make my career better in the long run with VAPA. No business man will spend millions to prevent something if he knows it's not going to be a good return on his investment. Management, not VAPA has convinced me to vote yes with their reactions and words to VAPA.

Nearly every Established airline (certainly the ones we all want to work at) all needed to resort to unions historically. I don't see VAPA as anything different than the need for unions at all of the "career" airlines in north America. It's natural progression IMO. No disrespect intended because my views differ from yours.

Genius. Please call everyone you know at BlueJet and tell them exactly what you posted above. (and... I guess that you should tell everyone at VA also. )

 

[RJLoser]

Wait, wait, let me get my popcorn..........

You and a union again....classic!

 

[Flyer1015]

So far VAPA has guaranteed nothing, just like SWA, UPS, FEDEX, DELTA and UNITED unions promised nothing. They have promised to stay non-confrontational and negotiate with respect. The company has guaranteed they will purposely drag out the negotiations and that our relationship with them will suffer. The companies words got me more worried than anything VAPA has or has not said. The truth is though, nobody can guarantee anything. We all throw money at our 401K and fidelity has never guaranteed anything either. Yet we try to have a say in our future don't we?

Everyone has had differing experiences, and normally that shapes their views. I have had 3 great experiences with unions; including the dreaded IBT. Worked great for us while we needed them. The people running VA are far smarter than I am, and when they invest over a million in Ford Harrison to prevent a CBA and make a website better than any company intranet site, I can't help but thinking they know exactly why they are doing that. They are doing it because just the CHANCE to prevent the union will be CHEAPER for them than us ending up with a CBA. To me, that is managements own admission that a CBA will make my career better in the long run with VAPA. No business man will spend millions to prevent something if he knows it's not going to be a good return on his investment. Management, not VAPA has convinced me to vote yes with their reactions and words to VAPA.

Nearly every Established airline (certainly the ones we all want to work at) all needed to resort to unions historically. I don't see VAPA as anything different than the need for unions at all of the "career" airlines in north America. It's natural progression IMO. No disrespect intended because my views differ from yours.

Those are all profitable companies, and had been so excluding the effects of 9/11 and recessions. Today, all of those listed carriers have been making money. VA, on the other hand, hasn't made money since its existence, except one quarter in 2010. So on what basis, or with what leverage do you think VAPA will operate with? How do you force a companies hand when they have no financial profits, and no reason to negotiate with you? You admit yourself, if VAPA comes in, it will be status quo for at least 3-5 years at minimum, during which time we'll get no payraises or increases in QOL issues.

A union eventually, but the timing right now is wrong. JetBlue voted down representation twice, but only now has their management really tried to screw the pilot group by redefining pay and medical benefits. So far, at VA we don't have that problem. The company has offered a pay increase in 2011 and 2012. If VAPA was to stay off property for now, you're far more likely to see another increase in 2013 or 2014 at latest. Let this company become profitable, so in front a mediatior board when we negotiate we can at least seem reasonable with our demands. Other than that, it's gonna be like trying to squeeze blood out of a rock. We're already bleeding red ink, lets go in the black first. Bring VAPA on now, and I guarantee we won't be seeing a payraise for at least 3-5 years. The only immediate benefit would be the end of a at-will employment, where you can be fired for the smallest/simplest of things. Well, I guess you'd still be fired, but then if it's wrongful termination, VAPA should be able to get your job back after ______ amount of time.


Another thing, I am NOT impressed with VAPA's estimated assessment fee of 2-3%. That is far too high! Bringing VAPA on property, I can kiss goodbye any chance of a payraise for a couple years, and the only benefit of ending at-will employment status. You know, ALPA can do all that too, and they can do it for 1.95%. I despise ALPA but if we must get a union on property, I'd much rather get ALPA onboard and lose 1.95% rather than VAPA and risk losing 2-3%, potentially more. I need to keep the maximum amount of money in my pocket, and if it's ALPA vs VAPA, ALPA is cheaper = more money in my pocket.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

Only one small problem Flyer 1015. You can't just "bring ALPA onboard". You have to ask them if they will represent you, and ALPA has to agree.

ALPA spent a lot of time and effort early on to try to prevent us from certification and have convinced many legacy pilots we are all foreign nationals flying in the US under a foreign certificate. They won't change direction now for a few hundred dues payers that will need more resources than they will be paying for.

The other issue s quite a few of us here will not vote for ALPA under any circumstances, for various reasons.

The bottom line is there is no free lunch.You are either ready to pony up for in house or willing to live with the current deal the company gives us.

As a senior CA I am pretty happy. My issue is a change of management or even a change of direction by current management and the deal can get changed in a second. And there are two choices you have if that happens: say see you later or accept it.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Those are all profitable companies, and had been so excluding the effects of 9/11 and recessions. Today, all of those listed carriers have been making money. VA, on the other hand, hasn't made money since its existence, except one quarter in 2010. So on what basis, or with what leverage do you think VAPA will operate with? How do you force a companies hand when they have no financial profits, and no reason to negotiate with you? You admit yourself, if VAPA comes in, it will be status quo for at least 3-5 years at minimum, during which time we'll get no payraises or increases in QOL issues.

A union eventually, but the timing right now is wrong. JetBlue voted down representation twice, but only now has their management really tried to screw the pilot group by redefining pay and medical benefits. So far, at VA we don't have that problem. The company has offered a pay increase in 2011 and 2012. If VAPA was to stay off property for now, you're far more likely to see another increase in 2013 or 2014 at latest. Let this company become profitable, so in front a mediatior board when we negotiate we can at least seem reasonable with our demands. Other than that, it's gonna be like trying to squeeze blood out of a rock. We're already bleeding red ink, lets go in the black first. Bring VAPA on now, and I guarantee we won't be seeing a payraise for at least 3-5 years. The only immediate benefit would be the end of a at-will employment, where you can be fired for the smallest/simplest of things. Well, I guess you'd still be fired, but then if it's wrongful termination, VAPA should be able to get your job back after ______ amount of time.


Another thing, I am NOT impressed with VAPA's estimated assessment fee of 2-3%. That is far too high! Bringing VAPA on property, I can kiss goodbye any chance of a payraise for a couple years, and the only benefit of ending at-will employment status. You know, ALPA can do all that too, and they can do it for 1.95%. I despise ALPA but if we must get a union on property, I'd much rather get ALPA onboard and lose 1.95% rather than VAPA and risk losing 2-3%, potentially more. I need to keep the maximum amount of money in my pocket, and if it's ALPA vs VAPA, ALPA is cheaper = more money in my pocket.

Most people that have an issue with the term at will have no clue whatsoever what it means and how little it is to be feared. This is especially true in the state of California.

I wish people would get educated before making that decision. The company has not done a good job of explaining it and that has allowed VAPA to pander to the fears of those don't take the time to understand what it does and does not mean.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Flyer,

I guess I should clarify that I was not making a specific reference to you. It was more of an observation of a trend toward using at will as a proxy for gaining support for this drive. I do not believe that most of the supporters have been accurate in their assessment of the threat is poses to any individual.

I can't say whether this is on purpose or simply out of ignorance. Either way it is not a good strategy to drum up support on the basis of policy and legal processes so poorly understood by the average employee.

 

[jayme]

Most people that have an issue with the term at will have no clue whatsoever what it means and how little it is to be feared. This is especially true in the state of California.

From HERE

California’s Labor Code specifies that an employment relationship with no specified duration is presumed to be employment “at-will.” This means, at least in theory, that the employer or employee may terminate the employment relationship at any time, with or without cause. There are exceptions to the at-will rule created by statute, the courts or public policy.

Statutory exceptions include terminating an employee for reasons based on the discrimination laws discussed above; for participating in union activity; for refusing to carry out an activity that violates the law.

An employer can potentially reduce exposure to wrongful discharge liability by emphasizing using an at-will language in all written and verbal communications with employees. This extends from job announcements and interviews to employee handbooks, training seminars and employee reviews. It is also advised to avoid references in all situations that indicate job security or permanence.

So WTF are you talking about?