Virgin America Info?

[Lear70]

I'm sorry....just how is Virgin lowering the bar any lower than the regional airlines already are??? It seems that Virgin pays more and offers more than most regionals...Let's face it, there are alot of RJ's flying routes that used to be flown by major airlines, and that has severely lowered the bar in this industry. It was one thing when regionals were flying from ORD to podunk Iowa, but now they are flying major city to major city with pilots earning a small fraction of what the majors were making...that is what is undercutting the industry.

Name a regional that's operating Airbus equipment.

Regional pay for a large Embraer (170/190) is bad enough. Regional pay for an Airbus or a Boeing is "undercutting the industry".

Obviously you've never done negotiations for your union and seen how a company's management will use the lowest paid company flying your equipment to pressure you into expecting the same pay in order to "save costs and keep the company viable".

THAT is why everyone gets so angry about it... it DIRECTLY affects every other pilot at every other airline that operates similar equipment.

We all rely on everyone else to keep wages in an upward trend. Every time a group caves and flies for lower than standard wages, the bar gets lowered.

It's pretty simple math.

 

[Abe Froman]

We all rely on everyone else to keep wages in an upward trend. Every time a group caves and flies for lower than standard wages, the bar gets lowered.

quote]

I missed the part where the Virgin America pilot group caved. We are on startup payscale. Can one of you who is so eager to slam our payscale give me 3 examples of airlines that started up and paid your beloved "industry standard" wages right out of the gate.

 

[Lear70]

We all rely on everyone else to keep wages in an upward trend. Every time a group caves and flies for lower than standard wages, the bar gets lowered.

I missed the part where the Virgin America pilot group caved. We are on startup payscale. Can one of you who is so eager to slam our payscale give me 3 examples of airlines that started up and paid your beloved "industry standard" wages right out of the gate.

Can you name 3 startups in the last decade that have survived more than 5 years?

Low wages don't automatically equal successful company.

Pilot wages are a small part of the cost equation, yet everyone buys into the idea that they're "making the company succesful", and accepting low wages as a result.

Virgin isn't as bad as some (Skybus), but this whole idea of starting over at year 1 scale when you upgrade is complete and pure bullsh*t and needs to stop before the rest of the industry jumps on it as a bargaining chip.

 

[~~~^~~~]

this whole idea of starting over at year 1 scale when you upgrade is complete and pure bullsh*t and needs to stop before the rest of the industry jumps on it as a bargaining chip.

You lose longevity when you upgrade ?

 

[Lear70]

You lose longevity when you upgrade ?

Yup.

Check out airlinepilotpay.com.

It's standard at many carriers in Europe and Cathay does it as well. Unfortunately, since the creators of SkyBus and Virgin are from that part of the world, they see it as standard practice where here in the U.S., it's almost unheard of.
Terrible idea... uke:

 

[Abe Froman]

Can you name 3 startups in the last decade that have survived more than 5 years?

Low wages don't automatically equal successful company.

Pilot wages are a small part of the cost equation, yet everyone buys into the idea that they're "making the company succesful", and accepting low wages as a result.

Virgin isn't as bad as some (Skybus), but this whole idea of starting over at year 1 scale when you upgrade is complete and pure bullsh*t and needs to stop before the rest of the industry jumps on it as a bargaining chip.

I can name two... almost. Allegiant and Airtran. Yes, I know that Airtran is older than 10 years but not by alot. Valuejet and Allegiants first group of pilots was making terrible wages and both are doing pretty well now.

As far as going back to year 1 at upgrade, I am not a fan and won't defend it. I think it is wrong and needs to be changed. I am not too concerned about it right now since upgrade is 6-8 MONTHS and not 7-10 YEARS.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

modern day scab!

Gee...I thought a "scab" was a person who has crossed a picket line to do struck work.

 

[xjs1]

"upside potential"? Oh, you mean accepting the lowest wage in the industry so that the foreign owner can undercut the rest of the industry.

Please go back to playing with your Pipers. The grownups are talking now.

 

[MCDU]

If people want to talk about Virgin wages undercutting the majors, there was an airline based in PHX that did that for over 20 years and allowed 90 seat jets to operate on their behalf for even lower wages. So this is nothing new. Its a hard fight to keep our salary when you have scum willing to do it for a lot less. 5 more years of this crap and I will retire as planned at 60 and hopefully get to live a few more years.

Marty

 

[Lear70]

I can name two... almost. Allegiant and Airtran. Yes, I know that Airtran is older than 10 years but not by alot. Valuejet and Allegiants first group of pilots was making terrible wages and both are doing pretty well now.

Allegiant certainly qualifies, and I wouldn't say Allegiant is still "doing very well" as far as wages. It sucks, actually, on the CA side of the house especially, and with F/O's not getting longevity raises after Year 4.

They're also part of the problem.

Airtran doesn't qualify, as they have been around quite a bit longer than 10 years. If I remember correctly, they were pariahs of the major airline industry as well with their pay rates before the last contract was signed, just as Virgin pilots are on the receiving end of now...

As far as going back to year 1 at upgrade, I am not a fan and won't defend it. I think it is wrong and needs to be changed. I am not too concerned about it right now since upgrade is 6-8 MONTHS and not 7-10 YEARS.

And therein lies the problem.

No one is ever concerned about pay issues as long as it doesn't affect them. Then, later, when it gets thrown in their face during negotiations (and it always does), they become angry but, by then, it's far too late to fix the problem.

Skybus is my biggest gripe right now. I actually refused to put my resume in there, even when I was jobless, out of self-respect.

I know I'm worth more than those wages and I refuse to whore myself out for them. I also know that my sense of professional self-worth is in the minority in aviation these days. Too may starry-eyed students out there with Shiny Jet Syndrome...

 

[Abe Froman]

Lear70,

My point is that with both Airtran and Allegiant, they are making steps. Nobody stars out with American Airlines payrates.

Also, what does 10 years really have to do with this discussion. If you want to look at it accurately, you should look at all startups since deregulation. And yes, I agree with you that most will fail and I have worked at several of them. The ones I worked with failed b/c they didn't keep their costs under control, payroll being a huge one.

Also, I told you I didn't like the policy on year 1 pay. No defense of it here. I wasn't going to not take the job over a policy that would not affect me. I'll bet Airtran has a policy or too that you think are crap.

 

[trip]

I heard Virgin hired some street captains, when right seat F.O.'s found out newly hired Cpt's had less time then they did - well the banana hit the fan! Squawking F.O.'s ended up being let go.

 

[The Victors]

Lear70,

My point is that with both Airtran and Allegiant, they are making steps. Nobody stars out with American Airlines payrates.

Also, what does 10 years really have to do with this discussion. If you want to look at it accurately, you should look at all startups since deregulation. And yes, I agree with you that most will fail and I have worked at several of them. The ones I worked with failed b/c they didn't keep their costs under control, payroll being a huge one.

Also, I told you I didn't like the policy on year 1 pay. No defense of it here. I wasn't going to not take the job over a policy that would not affect me. I'll bet Airtran has a policy or too that you think are crap.

That was Lear's point that you obviously missed twice. You dont care because it's "a policy that would not effect me". Well it effects every pilot at every other airline and those that come in behind you.

 

[xjs1]

Victors,

Isn't is past your bedtime?

 

[The Victors]

I hesistate to respone to you because you're obviously not very smart, but here goes. I don't actually fly pipers. next...