Virgin America Groupon offer- this weeks' sign the apocalypse is upon us.

[Dan Roman]

Ralph,

No games or stonethrowing when there is a disabled child involved. You are a good parent.

True statement. I've found guys like Ralph, who have been around, are often better people and better pilots than someone who has never been furloughed and only worked at one airline. You can't through stones in this industry without being a hypocryte. We are all playing with the cards we were dealt, most of them were out of our control. If any of you think you are smarter or better because of the airline you work for you are only fooling yourself.
Being a good parent, having good friends and enjoying your life away from work is way more important than the paint job on the side of your airplane.

 

[say again]

True statement. I've found guys like Ralph, who have been around, are often better people and better pilots than someone who has never been furloughed and only worked at one airline. You can't through stones in this industry without being a hypocryte. We are all playing with the cards we were dealt, most of them were out of our control. If any of you think you are smarter or better because of the airline you work for you are only fooling yourself.
Being a good parent, having good friends and enjoying your life away from work is way more important than the paint job on the side of your airplane.

Well said!! :beer:

I've been furloughed, laid-off 4 times over the past 6 years. Luck of the draw, I guess. Each company that I was hired by was considered in a "strong" position (making money, expanding, plenty of work). Well, just goes to show that things can change drastically in this industry, and very quickly. I certainly do not wish this upon anyone, no matter what may be said here. It's the nature of this wonderful industry we call aviation.

 

[pilotpm]

Yep, pretty much the responses I expected from the people I expected. What ever.

 

[waveflyer]

Yep, pretty much the responses I expected from the people I expected. What ever.

I'm sorry.
Are you lumping me into that crowd? You don't have a response for my post?

 

[pilotpm]

Here's the deal. You guys can bash us all you want for not being unionized. But, I and most of my co-workers believe a company will go union when THEY deserve it. Why would we spoil the good working relationship we have and the continuing voluntary improvements in pay and working conditions. When THEY start lying and messing with the formula, they will get what they deserve. Until that time there is no reason for a union.

Thanks Virgin America for making my point yesterday. In case you hadn't heard, We are all getting another raise on June 1.

 

[waveflyer]

Thanks Virgin America for making my point yesterday. In case you hadn't heard, We are all getting another raise on June 1.

PM-
Good. And again- if they were really good- theyd put it in writing- the time to vote in a union is not when you need one.

If you collectively bargain - there is a legal, proper way to do that. Otherwise, why can't the better pilots who are better employees negotiate a well earned higher rate than the slackers at VA?

(or did you not respond to me before bc you have no answer ?

Do you get upset with your bank when they want you to sign legally binding papers holding you to your mortgage? I mean, where's the trust and good will?)

 

[pilotpm]

PM-
Good. And again- if they were really good- theyd put it in writing- the time to vote in a union is not when you need one.

If you collectively bargain - there is a legal, proper way to do that. Otherwise, why can't the better pilots who are better employees negotiate a well earned higher rate than the slackers at VA?

(or did you not respond to me before bc you have no answer ?

Do you get upset with your bank when they want you to sign legally binding papers holding you to your mortgage? I mean, where's the trust and good will?)

Would you agree that as soon as a union is voted in, that you will be stuck with the status quo for 3-4 years while the first agreement is negotiated? Why would I want the current to be the status quo when I am currently getting pay and work rule improvements on a regular basis. I prefer to wait until those improvements are no longer occuring. Then the 3-4 year freeze will be at the higher level. Don't get me wrong I am not anti union, just not now. For reference I have a 20 year ALPA pin and was also a teamster on two deferent occations.

 

[Mach88]

The real issue isnt pilots taking jobs at low cost carriers then not voting in a union right away. Most of us were in a position that we needed a pilot job at some point in our careers and we arent talking about crossing picket lines. And its easy for a pilot that enjoys a good union contract to say they would stick their neck out and try and organize their pilot group and then actively fight for the contract. I have seen a lot of apathy at both union and nonunion carriers.

I think the real issue is that American consumers just want to pay the cheapest price, whether its a plane ticket, a car, or a shirt made in China. Maybe Im alone but I support companies that pay well even if I have to pay a bit more. And I encourage my friends and family to do the same.

How many of you Virgin bashers shop at Walmart rather than the store down the street that employs union workers that enjoy better pay and benifits? Its not just our profession thats taken a beating in pay and benifits by low cost nonunion competitors. Good luck to all of us.

 

[waveflyer]

Mach- I do- and agree with your point.

Pilotpm-
I think you are thinking that the contentious mentality is the only way to unionize.
Swapa flies in the face of that for over 3 decades.
I would say that the status quo is not limited upward by language- I see nothing in the RLA that forces a company to not give a raise that they would like to. But again that's the wrong mentality- why give a company latitude when you honestly believe they'd negotiate like that?

 

[Full of LUV]

Mach- I do- and agree with your point.

Pilotpm-
I think you are thinking that the contentious mentality is the only way to unionize.
Swapa flies in the face of that for over 3 decades.
I would say that the status quo is not limited upward by language- I see nothing in the RLA that forces a company to not give a raise that they would like to. But again that's the wrong mentality- why give a company latitude when you honestly believe they'd negotiate like that?

With all due respect for SWAPA.... they did spend the first two decades of that as a severe anchor to the profession in terms of no retirement, no retiree medical insurance and no pensions. What's new now is that through the BK process they are now seen as the panacea of pilot contracts.

 

[Busdriver320]

Mach- I do- and agree with your point.

Pilotpm-
I think you are thinking that the contentious mentality is the only way to unionize.
Swapa flies in the face of that for over 3 decades.
I would say that the status quo is not limited upward by language- I see nothing in the RLA that forces a company to not give a raise that they would like to. But again that's the wrong mentality- why give a company latitude when you honestly believe they'd negotiate like that?

The problem is that it WOULD be contentious at VA. Management is as anti-union as they come. The F/A's have been on a drive for over a year and the company is very actively trying to quash it. They put out the usual anti-union propaganda and the young girls fresh out of college who've never had a job buy right into it. After they've been abused for awhile they begin to see the light. Then you have the assorted ex-TWA/ATA/National/etc ones who are about 50/50 in their thoughts. Then there are some others from legacies who are vocally anti.

Don't be fooled by some of the posts here, not all the pilots at VA are drinking the Kool-Aid. The latest raise is a joke, looks more like a contract cost-of-living raise than anything that closes the gap to our peers at some of the other smaller LCC's. I predict there will be union rumblings soon enough. I for one can't wait to sign the card.

Peace

 

[waveflyer]

With all due respect for SWAPA.... they did spend the first two decades of that as a severe anchor to the profession in terms of no retirement, no retiree medical insurance and no pensions. What's new now is that through the BK process they are now seen as the panacea of pilot contracts.

I think you don't like or understand capitalism very much-
My issue isnt w/ VAs pay for now- theyre a startup-it's the fact that they are collectively bargaining w/o representation that I have an issue with-

 

[Tomct]

Bus, I agree 100%. The raise was an insult and it will push people in the other direction. It needed to be bumped (For Real), and they dropped the ball. It will be interesting here in the next 12 mos to say the least.

Wave, it is on everyone's mind. I personally, would like to go "in-house," but I know that is very expensive. I would rather go that route instead of ALPA. Too many people here have been screwed by ALPA, so I don't see them making it on this property. We will have to wait and see.

 

[jayme]

My issue isnt w/ VAs pay for now- theyre a startup-it's the fact that they are collectively bargaining w/o representation that I have an issue with-

I'm not sure what you mean by this? How are we collectively bargaining? Management unilaterally imposed that pay raise with no input from us.

 

[waveflyer]

I'm not sure what you mean by this? How are we collectively bargaining? Management unilaterally imposed that pay raise with no input from us.

Apologies jayme- but can any line holder go to your chief and negotiate a better rate?
That's the collective part-

Bargaining might just be up in the air- how do you address pilot issues there?

 

[Dan Roman]

Wave, just an observation. You are with SWA, you guys have come a long way. However, VA is still a relativly new operation. I think it is safe to say they are doing better than SWA was after just a few years of operation. I thinks it's a little cheeky to judge them. It wasn't that long ago when SWA Captains made less than F/O's did at the legacies.
We all live in glass houses.

 

[Dan Roman]

Bus, I agree 100%. The raise was an insult and it will push people in the other direction. It needed to be bumped (For Real), and they dropped the ball. It will be interesting here in the next 12 mos to say the least.

Wave, it is on everyone's mind. I personally, would like to go "in-house," but I know that is very expensive. I would rather go that route instead of ALPA. Too many people here have been screwed by ALPA, so I don't see them making it on this property. We will have to wait and see.

Just curious. I know guys who went there because their ALPA job folded due to management. They did not lose their job because of ALPA. In fact they would have lost even more had it not been for ALPA. I.E if no ALPA they would have worked for even less and salvaged zero retirement as their repective managements ran their companies into the ground. How is it they got screwed by ALPA? ALPA is what preserved what little their was to save as negligent managements ruined once good companies.

 

[waveflyer]

Wave, just an observation. You are with SWA, you guys have come a long way. However, VA is still a relativly new operation. I think it is safe to say they are doing better than SWA was after just a few years of operation. I thinks it's a little cheeky to judge them. It wasn't that long ago when SWA Captains made less than F/O's did at the legacies.
We all live in glass houses.

Youre coming in a little late to the conversation- I totally agree with you- my critique doesnt come from their pay or work rules- it's the propaganda spread against unionizing. It's all very Ford and Harrison familiar - other than that- come on , join the fray- it's what capitalism's all about

 

[LoveGun]

Looks like the ORD Groupon deal did so well that Virgin has extended the deal to DFW.

About two weeks ago, Virgin America managed to do an outstanding thing. They announced that service between Chicago-O'Hare and LAX, SFO would begin in late May, but more to the point, they sold out a crazy Groupon deal in a matter of a couple hours. The bargain was pay $7 and get $77 in airfare towards a roundtrip purchase on Virgin America’s new ORD routes, and the deal was good on Groupon's Chicago, Los Angeles and San Francisco sites...all of whom ate it up.



Well, the deal is back. Except this time it's a bit modified, and it's for Virgin America's Dallas-Fort Worth routes. DFW is still a new destination for VX, seeing as how they only kicked their spurs into the place back in December. Here's the details behind the airfare discount they've offering today (and keep in mind it's a limited thing!)

 

[Fubijaakr]

Smacks of desperation to me.