Virgin America Groupon offer- this weeks' sign the apocalypse is upon us.

[Tomct]

There's a reason Virgin gets bashed so much on here. It is because some of us understand history, have lived through it, and don't want to be doomed to repeat it.

So here's the story. Yet another non-union, undercutting airline has started up and is now encroaching upon established competitors. When have we EVER seen this before? And of course, us students of airline history know that this ALWAYS turns out well for those of us that are actually trying to do something about trying to raise pay and work rules in the business. I mean, when Frontier, JetBlue, Valujet got big, wages went UP in the industry, right? So nothing to worry about here, I guess, either. A growing, thriving Virgin (and it's inevitable copycats currently being dreamed up) is good for all of us! Nothing to see here. And of course, as another Virgin pilot stated, it would be "selfish" to ask for anything more.

Don't forget that when you come back to compare hourly rates to United's to "prove me wrong" that you include our 16% B&C fund, our zero dollars per month short and long term disability, and our zero dollars per month health insurance cost.....and of course we are in contract negotiations right now to improve upon what we already have. Any idea when the Virgin pilots will try to negotiate an industry leading contract to show us all how it's done?

And I love the way a Virgin pilot likes to bash YONITED. Seems to me there are quite a few Virgin pilots needing to ride YONITED to get to work as they likely can't afford to live in the Bay area on Virgin wages. I fly quite often out of SFO and unfortunately have to honor our jumpseat agreement. However us YONITED pilots have a GREAT sense of humor. If you would like to share more YONITED jokes with us when many of you come to ask for a ride, please do.

So let me get this straight, you get your panties in a wad when someone uses the YONITED term, and oh by the way, we give plenty o rides to your boys as well, so just ease up there poncho...if you can't take the mud slinging here, then stop looking at the posts. It's a pilot "B!tch" board and as such, that is mostly what you will read here on FI. Everyone flashing their ego's. And why would I ever want to live in the bay area....no thanks! I enjoy the short commute to work and the nice looking ladies in the back. I have used UAL for a ride now and again and I appreciate it as well, I in turn, give rides to numerous UAL boys and am glad to do it.

Bill, the only carrier out there that pays cash for their planes is SWA so you are right there with us in your...how did you say it...."no money down leased jet..." so pipe down. I think it is hilarious how you still use the term "shiny jet," is yours a shiny jet too? No, wait, unless you work for DAL, UAL, or SWA it is ok, but everyone else is "SJS," give me a break. Also, I'm going to need you to come into work on Saturday.....MMMmmmkay?

Googs...they are improving, slowly but surely. Thanks for your concern.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Wow, were we ever this arrogant? We were pretty full of ourselves early on but this just takes the cake. Maybe it's a west coast thing.

That's nice and all but, more importantly, how are your pay and work rules?

Someday, you will realize past your shiny new big jet type rating, that food needs to be put on the table and whoring yourself out for Sir Richard and his lapdog Cush, won't pay the bills. They are using your trash wages and workrules to make themselves rich while you walk around thinking you are cool with embroidered luggage and black pilot shirts. Edgy DUDE.....That's Wicked Awesome!

If you survive....the last laugh will be yours...until you turn a real profit and stay in a city pair longer than 3 months, just shut your cornhole and quit acting like you are the best tennis team in Alaska.

What else can I add?

Any idea when the Virgin pilots will try to negotiate an industry leading contract to show us all how it's done?

....Seems to me there are quite a few Virgin pilots needing to ride YONITED to get to work as they likely can't afford to live in the Bay area on Virgin wages. I fly quite often out of SFO and unfortunately have to honor our jumpseat agreement.

Forget it, driver. Irony doesn't work on the intellectually and/or morally deficient

This isn't a Virgin pilot telling me to "move the line forward," is it? Correct me if I am wrong. If it is, I guess I should ask when I can expect that from you?

The twelfth of NEVER?

 

[Chairman]

This isn't a Virgin pilot telling me to "move the line forward," is it? Correct me if I am wrong. If it is, I guess I should ask when I can expect that from you?

Virgin Guy,1437,Furlough Brother.......I really don't give a dam what you want to call me...Been there done that! And really don't need your jump seat I will right my own pass thank you!

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

TomCt

My reference is to the fact that your airline has a "Sign and Drive" deal with Airbus. No cash needed, full airbus financing.

Prove me wrong.

 

[ualdriver]

Virgin Guy,1437,Furlough Brother.......I really don't give a dam what you want to call me...Been there done that! And really don't need your jump seat I will right my own pass thank you!

It's not my jumpseat. There's no veiled threat. However, if you're going to talk trash about United (your peers, not necessarily you) then I hope they would have the sack to say it to the faces of the guys who make their employment at VA possible without having to uproot their families. They certainly can't afford to live in SFO on VA salaries.

You're a furloughee......so......are you hoping that VA's new service to Chicago is successful? As we negotiate our new contract, do you think we should cut our Airbus wages, work rules, benefits, and retirement down to VA levels so that we can compete and fight instead of retreat, leaving less Airbus jobs for furloughees to come back to? Longevity is expensive and would put us at a competitive disadvantage to airlines like VA, no?

 

[b82rez]

There were no $7 tickets. For $7 dollars you received $77 dollars off your fair!

Seriously??

 

[ualdriver]

Ralph

It is unfortunate you had a dotted career. Maybe I will too. Well, actually I won't because I would find something else to do if United dies. I wouldn't bother with what you went through.

However, if you have been around the block as much as you claim, then you know exactly why VA guys take the beatings they do. It is an industry that is tired of having a group of pilots fighting to make improvements while another undermines those very efforts. Your group is doing the SAME exact thing the LCC's of the mid to late 1990's were doing, but now we have the benefit of history to realize the damage that causes to the profession. You and your peers can rationalize it any way you want. As long as airlines like VA compete on the basis of "who can pay their pilots the least" instead of the other things you mention (schedules, FF programs, etc) then we as a profession are doomed to repeat what has happened this past decade. The JetBlue pilots now "get it.". The Valujet pilots (now Airtran) "get it" now. The VA pilots...well, not so much. Is it unreasonable to expect the VA guys to stop undermining the rest of us?

 

[Chairman]

I don't remember to many being concerned when I was making much less to start at UAL, or when I didn't get a hotel or per diem in training. So I guess the bar was set low enough for VA to start with. As for longevity, yeah I know its expensive but nothing like Scope and Retro pay but I don't read to many on the UAL forums worrying about the competitive disadvantage of those. Lets see we have 34 airplanes UNICAL has what over 700? We at VA know what needs to be improved as you do at UAL. Just because we don't air it here is not different that you touting that we add in the 16% B/C fund contribution to a salary comparison then go on the UAL forum and scream how everyone will vote no without Scope and retro and will strike if need be.

Fly Safe,

Chairman

 

[waveflyer]

C-man, sometimes to is spelled with two "o"'s. Just saying.

UAL - its just about the lamest, irresponsible, irrational argument to put any blame on VX for your situation.
SWA has been carrying the water on pay - as an LCC- for 10 years now.
Maybe "yonited" is floundering bc you have incompetent and extremely selfish managers....? And that greedy, selfish, look out for #1 mentality has infiltrated just about every part of the organization- especially the ALPA so called union - (how many ways could you all be fractured against each other? Hell- half your domestic flights are outsourced!)

United and their outsourcing has done way more damage to the industry in the past 10-12 years than anything VX is doing-
But keep looking for excuses.

We'd all love it though if the sellout "legacy" pilots would just shut up and concentrate on their own issues.

Stop being the proud, fat middle aged man still bragging about his athletic accomplishments in college- bc you guys haven't done sh/t to improve this industry in a really, really long time

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I knew we could draw Wave into this.....

So the great and powerful water carrying SWAPA guys are the heroes huh? Sure, My airline was the highest paid until 10 years ago....you want to blame outsourcing, I blame LCC startups with no benefits and no workrules with garbage pay.

Walk down memory lane with me junior, it's gonna be hard to remember because your parents were still writing checks to Riddle when this went down so bear with me........When we were doing our own negotiations in the 90's, all I could hear was how much the SWA guy worked and how they don't have a pension and how they get paid by the trip and if there's a delay or weather OR THEY GO INTO HOLDING, they get paid the same. Sorry, tough crap. Well guess who decided that it was a good idea to try and impose that on the legacies? I'll save you the drama....you know every management team thought that they could get that same undercutting sweet deal courtesy of the Herb turds.

All I have heard over the past 15 years is how they (pointing the finger at the latest flash in the pan startup) do things cheaper and how we must adapt to compete. DO WE REALLY? or is there something else in play here......it's startups who are dragging this profession down not you WAVE holding this industry up.....

You too will fall....

Not fat, just ran a Tri.....I am middle aged....but damn happy I can say my career has had autothrottles and VNAV and a history of getting paid when delayed.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

Ralph

It is unfortunate you had a dotted career. Maybe I will too. Well, actually I won't because I would find something else to do if United dies. I wouldn't bother with what you went through.

However, if you have been around the block as much as you claim, then you know exactly why VA guys take the beatings they do. It is an industry that is tired of having a group of pilots fighting to make improvements while another undermines those very efforts. Your group is doing the SAME exact thing the LCC's of the mid to late 1990's were doing, but now we have the benefit of history to realize the damage that causes to the profession. You and your peers can rationalize it any way you want. As long as airlines like VA compete on the basis of "who can pay their pilots the least" instead of the other things you mention (schedules, FF programs, etc) then we as a profession are doomed to repeat what has happened this past decade. The JetBlue pilots now "get it.". The Valujet pilots (now Airtran) "get it" now. The VA pilots...well, not so much. Is it unreasonable to expect the VA guys to stop undermining the rest of us?

Trust me ualriver, if you had to start over and had the opportunity to get your seniority back at a well funded startup you would. I tried working outside of commercial aviation on my last retread, it's a lot of work for little pay! It was still better than applying to CAL at the time due to the low pay, no medical and the remainder of my career on reserve at the bottom.

Deregulation and the lack of an industry wide list and contract, added to our country's current right wing business politics will ensure the never ending repetition of new carriers. After my 20 plus years of watching ALPA politics play out I want nothing to do with it ever again.

Did you see the F9 - Republic list award? You have bigger problems on your radar screen than VX becoming a medium size niche carrier in your back yard. For the sake of your future I hope you do a Delta instead of a USAir. Knowing the militant scorched earth history of UAL labor since the 85 strike I am willing to bet against you.

 

[IAHERJ]

Trust me ualriver, if you had to start over and had the opportunity to get your seniority back at a well funded startup you would. I tried working outside of commercial aviation on my last retread, it's a lot of work for little pay! It was still better than applying to CAL at the time due to the low pay, no medical and the remainder of my career on reserve at the bottom.

Deregulation and the lack of an industry wide list and contract, added to our country's current right wing business politics will ensure the never ending repetition of new carriers. After my 20 plus years of watching ALPA politics play out I want nothing to do with it ever again.

Did you see the F9 - Republic list award? You have bigger problems on your radar screen than VX becoming a medium size niche carrier in your back yard. For the sake of your future I hope you do a Delta instead of a USAir. Knowing the militant scorched earth history of UAL labor since the 85 strike I am willing to bet against you.

Huh? 2005 hires held captain for a while before 2008 and are doing quite well flying widebodies or LNB aircraft right now at w-2's higher than A-320 captains at VA. Is there another reason why you didn't hire on to UAL or another legacy years and years ago? I mean, if you were qualified enough to pass on crossing a picket line at UAL in 1985, you were qualified to hire on in the years after when UAL hired like crazy.

 

[jonjuan]

Huh? 2005 hires held captain for a while before 2008 and are doing quite well flying widebodies or LNB aircraft right now at w-2's higher than A-320 captains at VA. Is there another reason why you didn't hire on to UAL or another legacy years and years ago? I mean, if you were qualified enough to pass on crossing a picket line at UAL in 1985, you were qualified to hire on in the years after when UAL hired like crazy.

No kidding-it's called revisionist history. Whatever makes him feel better about his abortion of a career.

 

[Bob Dylan]

So this guy walked the picket for UAL in 1985, and the best he could do is the lowest bottom feeding airline that hires obvious moron like Tomct? Whatever.

What happened between 1985 and now? Seems to me that FedEx, UPS and Southwest all ramped up pretty good airlines in the meantime. Plus many others.

I guess guys will do and say anything to justify pathetic decisions in life. I predict the guy has a DUI or something.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

Huh? 2005 hires held captain for a while before 2008 and are doing quite well flying widebodies or LNB aircraft right now at w-2's higher than A-320 captains at VA. Is there another reason why you didn't hire on to UAL or another legacy years and years ago? I mean, if you were qualified enough to pass on crossing a picket line at UAL in 1985, you were qualified to hire on in the years after when UAL hired like crazy.

I couldn't afford to feed a family on CAL new hire pay and have no medical insurance at the same time, so I never even applied. All of us Air Willie guys got a "thanks for coming in" interview at UAL in 94, very few got hired. Since UAL bought us and stripped all of our ORD slots before selling us. I guess they felt obligated. It left a very bad taste for ALPA national politics.

And jonjuan, you call it revisionist, I call it the other side of the story. I don't consider 20 years as a single digit CA an abortion of a career, even if it was in props and barbie jets to start. I haven't worked a bad trip or major holiday since the mid 80s. Can you say the same? You will win on pay but that's all.

I get what ualdriver is saying. I should quit the business so he can TRY to get back to contract 2000. I will never cross a picket line, but I do reserve the right to compete with you.

I'm very glad to not be at either CAL or UAL right now. You guys are going to burn down the house over your merger. I'm stocking up on marshmallows and sticks. Good luck to you.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

So this guy walked the picket for UAL in 1985, and the best he could do is the lowest bottom feeding airline that hires obvious moron like Tomct? Whatever.

What happened between 1985 and now? Seems to me that FedEx, UPS and Southwest all ramped up pretty good airlines in the meantime. Plus many others.

I guess guys will do and say anything to justify pathetic decisions in life. I predict the guy has a DUI or something.

That's pretty funny coming from Bob Dylan himself!

No, disabled family member. Would have lost insurance changing jobs until the law was changed in the late 90s. By then I was too old to want to start over. I don't consider a personal sacrifice to care for a disabled child pathetic, maybe you do. I hope you never get the chance to find out.

 

[waveflyer]

Bill- you're a troll

I was broke and worked my ********************ing ass off to get through flight school and college-
Keep telling yourself that I'm some rich kid who had everything handed to him- in reality- I'm the guy who's a lot smarter than you and works harder- I don't blame other people or other companies for my lot in life-

I don't have any desire to turn this into a SW thread bash- but there are huge differences between you and me and our two companies- you see- I WANT to work hard- most of my peers want to work hard- we aren't concerned with startups or legacies bc we feel like we'll kick either's butt up and down the airline market court bc we care about our company, are happy, and our company cares about us and shows it-

You guys probably vote republican bc you dont want to pay taxes- but are actually socialists- always blaming others for your own lack of success.
It's funny- here's a piece of advice old man- never wish for life to get easier- bc "easy" always resets and next thing you know the walk to the employee lot is something hard and you resent it. When you want to work hard, that's when life gets easy.

Bc guess what- we're a capitalist country- the entire system is dependent on startups- blame them all you want- SWA back in the day or VA now- if they're your excuse- you will never be out of them and always b/tching and confused why you're so Kane and out of control.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

That's nice and all but, more importantly, how are your pay and work rules?

Why?
They're kicking everyones butt........in a race to the bottom!:bomb:

 

[ualdriver]

I don't remember to many being concerned when I was making much less to start at UAL, or when I didn't get a hotel or per diem in training. So I guess the bar was set low enough for VA to start with. As for longevity, yeah I know its expensive but nothing like Scope and Retro pay but I don't read to many on the UAL forums worrying about the competitive disadvantage of those. Lets see we have 34 airplanes UNICAL has what over 700? We at VA know what needs to be improved as you do at UAL. Just because we don't air it here is not different that you touting that we add in the 16% B/C fund contribution to a salary comparison then go on the UAL forum and scream how everyone will vote no without Scope and retro and will strike if need be.

Fly Safe,

Chairman

You don't want to answer the questions. That's cool because there is no good way you could possibly answer them. If VA is successful in ORD, they will siphon traffic away from UAL, which means we need less UA pilots which means you are furloughed longer. Ditto for the AA guys and DFW. If you like VA better then I guess that doesn't matter to you. In that case, there is no need to worry about longevity. Also, for the record, our Council passed a resolution directing the MEC to direct the negotiating to obtain longevity benefits for our furloughed pilots a very long time ago. I am pretty sure other Councils followed.

Also, as a point of information, a successful VA puts labor at the incumbent carrier in an awkward position. Do you bring down your wages and compensation down to the new entrant's level (again) or do you just cede market share and suck up the losses? But no worries, you only have 34 aircraft.....wait.....where and when have I read that before??

If these new ultra low LCC carriers (like VA) are successful, over long periods of time, their 34 planes will turn to 50, which will turn to 75, which will turn to 250 when the copycats come which turns into another bloodbath for the legacies when hard fought gains are lost under the judge's gavel. But hey, you only have 34 airplanes so all is well......

 

[ualdriver]

l.

I get what ualdriver is saying. I should quit the business so he can TRY to get back to contract 2000. I will never cross a picket line, but I do reserve the right to compete with you.

I'm very glad to not be at either CAL or UAL right now. You guys are going to burn down the house over your merger. I'm stocking up on marshmallows and sticks. Good luck to you.

No, you should not quit so that we can try to get back contract 2000. And actually I really don't have a beef with you per se as I think you understand my points, although you don't agree with them. But what I do think that if you have a group of pilots who are trying to actively undermine the efforts of the rest of the industry, one (not you Ralph) shouldn't be bashing the guys that are actually trying to do something to improve the profession. Further, one shouldn't be on an Internet forum rationalizing one's decision to undermine me with phrases like, "we only have xx airplanes" or "we have a great relationship with management" or all the other cute little phrases we all read over and over.

I don't agree with your assessment about the SLI either. We all saw what happened at US Air. Once we get a contract, SLI will begin. There will be plenty of rhetoric coming from both sides during this time for membership consumption and we all know it will be going to an arbitrator anyway. Every pilot on the property will think they got screwed, and life will go on. I know you VA guys would love for that implosion to happen, but it likely won't. Hopefully you kept the receipts for your marshmallows.