Virgin America furlough?

[FlyinPiker]

As for the pay....Do you know/remember what the pay at SWA was then they started? No where near what they are now. There was a reason SWA was coined the "Wal-Mart" airline.

Pilot pay is an extremely small percentage of an airline's daily expenses.

Pretty weak using SWA as a reason to justify pay rates. VA isn't paying those rates to "protect" the airline and become the next Southwest, they are paying them because they know they can. Heck they could have paid 20% less and they'd still have a line of people out the door waiting to sign up.

With all of the guys/girls about ready to hit the street, and all of the guys/girls now stuck at the regionals looking to move on I don't see how pay is not going to continue to decrease every time another startup comes along ( or the industry as whole finds a new reason to point their finger at something and say "we're doomed!"...but either way the start up will always pay less because they can, not because they have to).

You can use Southwest/FedEx stories all day long, but how many carriers have you seen do the same thing in the last 20 years? Of the few successful startups out there ask some of the JetBlue guys and espeacially AirTran guys how happy they've been with their pay.

 

[Mud]

And how many ATA & Aloha guys has your company hired?

12 to date from Aloha, about the same from ATA. We are also starting to pick up guys from F9 and the like, and I've heard (not seen personally) from training that the apps from legacy pilots are starting to build.

Doubt we'll furlough as I just finished my type and they want me to do IOE asap as they are so short of pilots. Slight reduction in the fall but then ORD starts.

Everybody always bashes VA FO pay but at least we get a type out of the gate. If VA were to go under, it might help me overseas where my once beloved ALPA told me to go right before they headed off to their tee times at Moanalua Country Club. They were less than zero help.

Buyer beware, ALPA no longer has any teeth. They can't and won't protect you from big management's decisions. Your MEC's will help you out if you screw up and that sort of thing, but they have no ability to influence the big picture. IMHO every one of our jobs is at risk (sans SWA, FDX, UPS) but don't think for a moment it is ALPA who will save you.

 

[FlyinPiker]

Buyer beware, ALPA no longer has any teeth. They can't and won't protect you from big management's decisions. Your MEC's will help you out if you screw up and that sort of thing, but they have no ability to influence the big picture. IMHO every one of our jobs is at risk (sans SWA, FDX, UPS) but don't think for a moment it is ALPA who will save you.

Not that ALPA deserves any awards, but if you think ALPA pilots have gotten raped over the last 7 years with them I would hate to see what management would have been capable of without.

 

[PinnacleDude]

As I said in another post, it does not bother me so much that the VA guys and gals are paid poorly, but that the prevailing attitude is that they don't care to acknowledge the problem or work to fix the glaring issues. The "I got mine" attitude seems to prevail there. Hey different strokes for different airlines. I'll give you a ride and be very nice and polite, but that doesn't mean I respect you.

I do respect the F9 guys, the AirTran guys working to hold the line there, the JetBlue guys working to organize, and all the other unionized carriers who are working to improve things or at least stave off some unbelievably incompetent managements.

I hope those who come after me at my airline ALWAYS have it better than I did.

 

[vixin]

Everybody always bashes VA FO pay but at least we get a type out of the gate. If VA were to go under, it might help me overseas where my once beloved ALPA told me to go right before they headed off to their tee times at Moanalua Country Club. They were less than zero help.

Wow a type rating instead of 10's of thousands of dollars. Its not just the FO pay, but the CA as well. With the extra money you could buy your own type. Heck buy a couple if you want. Like another poster said they dont pay those rates to save the company. It is a very small percentage of running an airline. They pay them because they can and pilots will fly for that.

Very well said MR PD. Very well said!

 

[ualdriver]

Not that ALPA deserves any awards, but if you think ALPA pilots have gotten raped over the last 7 years with them I would hate to see what management would have been capable of without.

EXCELLENT point.

 

[ualdriver]

As I said in another post, it does not bother me so much that the VA guys and gals are paid poorly, but that the prevailing attitude is that they don't care to acknowledge the problem or work to fix the glaring issues. The "I got mine" attitude seems to prevail there. Hey different strokes for different airlines. I'll give you a ride and be very nice and polite, but that doesn't mean I respect you.

I do respect the F9 guys, the AirTran guys working to hold the line there, the JetBlue guys working to organize, and all the other unionized carriers who are working to improve things or at least stave off some unbelievably incompetent managements.

I hope those who come after me at my airline ALWAYS have it better than I did.

Wow! Two well written, to the point, great posts in the same thread! Pinch me! Is this Flightinfo.com?

 

[Ralph Cramden]

If you guys think it is a good time to negotiate pay I'd like some of what you're smoking. I was hoping to see a reset of the rates at the one year point, but since everybody else is shedding pilots right now the power to swing a better deal is pretty low.

Wish you guys would stop flooding the labor market.

As for ALPA, I have a 20 year pin at home. I've seen a lot of good for individual pilot protection (medical & legal) and a lot of good getting great contracts at some carriers. OTOH, ALPA national politics is a mess with no clear way to blend competing factions. I want no part of that side of it, and there are a lot of guys here with 20 year pins and battle stars that feel the same as me.

 

[FlyinPiker]

If you guys think it is a good time to negotiate pay I'd like some of what you're smoking.

If you think you'll be negotiating pay at all (good times or bad) I'd like some of what your smoking. They already went out of their way with the very orig idea of making you go back to first year pay after you upgrade.

If anything they might toss you a few dollars here and there once you threatin unionize...but it won't be because they thought it was about time they gave you a little something extra.

Thats what blows...do you really think skywest pilots would have the wages they do if they hadn't ridden the coat tails of union carriers.

Not that they are anything to brag about but how do you think these wages (including yours) ever came about anyway....management just giving away money?

 

[Ralph Cramden]

Thanks for your insight on pay negotiations FlyinPiker.

For what it's worth I've been on both sides of the table during my years.

Again, I have nothing against collective bargaining, I just don't see the timing as being very good right now. I also don't see any viable bargaining agents out there right now.

We really do have a good working relationship here right now, and I hope it continues. Best wishes for your situation...

 

[mvedepo]

As I said in another post, it does not bother me so much that the VA guys and gals are paid poorly, but that the prevailing attitude is that they don't care to acknowledge the problem or work to fix the glaring issues. The "I got mine" attitude seems to prevail there. Hey different strokes for different airlines. I'll give you a ride and be very nice and polite, but that doesn't mean I respect you.

I do respect the F9 guys, the AirTran guys working to hold the line there, the JetBlue guys working to organize, and all the other unionized carriers who are working to improve things or at least stave off some unbelievably incompetent managements.

I hope those who come after me at my airline ALWAYS have it better than I did.

Did you respect the Aloha guys? How about the ATA guys?

Will you still respect the guys that are put on the street at F9 and come to Virgin?

Where do you suggest the above mentioned pilots go? UAL? NWA? CAL? DAL? How about going to Pinnacle?

SWA is going to hire about 500 this year. There are already 250 in the pool leaving 250 open slots. Small dent in the approx 2000 pilots that are going to be put on the street this year.

I guess all these guys should start selling cars so they can retain your respect. :laugh:

If you looked at the VA seniority list you would find out that 90% have paid dues to ALPA at one time or another. Even more if you count all unions. I have paid my share to 3 different unions and I am quite sure we have paid much more in dues over our career than you have in the couple years you have been at Pinnacle.

 

[stratus72]

You should probably relax a little and get off your high horse. An ego like yours is not a good thing in this business and a "professional" like yourself should not resort to name-calling. There is nothing to get so upset over and if you are interested I am not angry in the slightest. I am a very happy 15-year old! But I am dismayed that such an educated guy like yourself is flying off the handle over such a trivial post. I am sure you are under a lot of stress right now and that may be why. That being the case, I offer my apology. Maybe my tone was bad in my original post but it was the message that I was trying to convey....don't believe what you are hearing today because 1) Most are wrong. 2) The environment is rapidly changing 3) I don't trust management. If you have been reading the posts on VA you would have garnered that they are going out of business; things are going perfectly; they are growing; they are shrinking; they are making money; they are bleeding like a stuck pig; they are hiring in the summer; they are hiring in the fall; they are furloughing. You get my point here. I guess I could have done without the "You guys crack me up comment" and for that I also apologize.

I agree, this is trivial. No hard feelings.

 

[FlyinPiker]

No insight needed. Its common sense. I'm not a VA basher. And I don't wish any harm to the pilots that fly there. Perhaps the future holds good things for VA pilots, perhaps not...the odds are against all of us at this point. The only reason I even bothered to post is the continued rambling of VA guys bragging about how much better life is without ALPA. ALPA isn't perfect but I think I'd be in a lot worse shape without it. It will The fact is VA guys won't know that for sure for a couple of years.

 

[Mud]

"Not that ALPA deserves any awards, but if you think ALPA pilots have gotten raped over the last 7 years with them I would hate to see what management would have been capable of without."

This is a good point for those still with jobs. From my perspective, what more could have happened? Terminate me with 24 hours notice?

 

[FlyinPiker]

This is a good point for those still with jobs. From my perspective, what more could have happened? Terminate me with 24 hours notice?

I'm pretty sure the management that was at the helm deserves the praise on that one...I will agree a union is useless if the company is being driven into the ground or cannot make money.

Amazingly in the past union carriers have still been able to get contract improvements (and yes it has gone the other way as well) while it's respective carrier was losing money (not due to pilot pay rates, but to mismanagement so why should we always be the ones to take it in the a##)...I can't see that happening at a carrier that does not have a union breathing down it's back, but I suppose it's possible. Some of the pilots working under the other Branson brands would probably be able to tell you otherwise.

Regardless...I'm done rambling. Good luck us all. VA has a very good product and if anything hopefully it will continue to challenge other carriers to "kick it up a notch" in the service/product department.