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Virgin America continues some serious bleeding

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Good luck to the Fine Folks over at VA! I have flown with some of you at a previous carrier and (I won't mention names) one of you was my old boss who I have the HIGEST RESPECT for to this day, he was truly a Chief Pilot's Pilot not to mention I believe he told UAL "thanks but no thanks!"

Good luck to us all, I am afraid things are going to get really bad later this year.

Oh-yeah I am a UAL guy and (gasp) wish no ill will to any Pilot group or company.

Fly Safe!




.
 
Collectively, we at the mainline have let the RJ thing get out of hand. I don't agree with many of the reasons posted here as to why that happened, but regardless of the reason, we have to stop it now. I think outside of 1113, scope relief is over.

Disagree. While everyone is watching the Midwest pilot group get destroyed, the next management playbook is getting written. I'll just say that I would have pushed management to merge Midwest and give all DOH without fences. Letting a dying airline flail around with a certificate and E-190's and CRJ-1000's coming into the mainstream seem more deadly than a handful of pilots that nobody cares about.
 
Check your numbers. VA's lowest capt wage is $95/hour. Our lowest paid captain makes $100/hour. That's a year two captain. What other airline could you possibly be hired at that will pay you $100/hour your second year, give you an A320 PIC type rating in initial, and give you a schedule with 16 days off/month starting your second month on line? Add to that: happy coworkers, the chance to ride the top of the seniority list for the rest of your career, great layover hotels, brand new aircraft, great maintenance, no hat, no tie, and no Jepp revisions. The down side is this whole thing could run out of money before turning a proffit. For a former regional pilot the potential risks are exceeded by the potential rewards. Stop hating, or come up with a better system than global capitalism. Enjoy jumpseating on VA. Don't forget to bring your headsets.

That's right out of the JB playbook. I think Aldous Huxley wrote a book about it.

Where'd I put my soma?

 
You're right. He should never try to improve his life unless it's for the best job out there. Instead he should have stayed at a regional for the next 15 years and competed with the other 50,000 regional pilots for a handful of jobs at FedEx and UPS. He must be brain dead and blind.


I am not referring to that I am referring to sounding like a knee pad wearing cheerleader management wet dream while existing in mediocrity.

I should know I work for the last airline that seems to have sneaked through the cracks by undercutting this industry. With attacks from every side JB has done well despite the fact that it is run by pure idiocy.

The day that VA dissappears will be a better day for everyone in this industry. The saddest part of this whole equation is that the vA press releases sound just like Deltas while they were in bankrupcy.

What other industry can you bring in 100 million, lose 42 million and talk about how great things because the year prior you lost 52 million in the same period.. ??
 
Check your numbers. VA's lowest capt wage is $95/hour. Our lowest paid captain makes $100/hour. That's a year two captain. What other airline could you possibly be hired at that will pay you $100/hour your second year, give you an A320 PIC type rating in initial, and give you a schedule with 16 days off/month starting your second month on line? Add to that: happy coworkers, the chance to ride the top of the seniority list for the rest of your career, great layover hotels, brand new aircraft, great maintenance, no hat, no tie, and no Jepp revisions. The down side is this whole thing could run out of money before turning a proffit. For a former regional pilot the potential risks are exceeded by the potential rewards. Stop hating, or come up with a better system than global capitalism. Enjoy jumpseating on VA. Don't forget to bring your headsets.


I am not bashing VA. I am just stating the facts. VA has a 70 hr/month bid and that is low pay, even at 110/hr. I am aware that you may fly 78 or 85 or 90 hrs a month...But, that is not the guarantee. So, you can not really plan on anything more than 70. Look at a 3 yr CA at SWA...176/hr. But, VA would be Chap 7 at that pay rate and Branson will NEVER pay a pilot that much..he said so himself many times that pilots are over paid. So.....
 
What I'm hearing is, "I want YOUR airline to fail and YOU on the street so that MY airline can succeed and I can get a raise." Sounds pretty selfish to me. These are probably the same guys buying their toilet paper at Walmart to save $.50 off the backs of underpaid workers. In most cases, the only difference between a pilot at an LCC and one at a legacy is luck, timing (luck), and who you know. IMHO, the ME ME ME attitude many pilots display, act on, and vote with has damaged this profession more than any single carrier. This industry is ruled by free enterprise, and there will always be capitalistic competition. Perhaps focusing our energy on uniting the collective pilot group with the goal of better pay and QOL for everyone would be more productive than lashing out at individual pilot groups.
 
Perhaps focusing our energy on uniting the collective pilot group with the goal of better pay and QOL for everyone would be more productive than lashing out at individual pilot groups.

OK, let's focus our energy on uniting the collective pilot group with the goal of better pay and QOL for everyone........I see just about EVERY pilot group at every airline fighting for a better contract EXCEPT airlines like VA. I'll support them just like I did JetBlue when they finally made a serious attempt to change the conditions at their airline. When can we expect VA to become part of the "collective pilot group" and make a serioius attempt at better pay and QOL? The rest of us are waiting......My checkbook is even open........
 
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Disagree. While everyone is watching the Midwest pilot group get destroyed, the next management playbook is getting written. I'll just say that I would have pushed management to merge Midwest and give all DOH without fences. Letting a dying airline flail around with a certificate and E-190's and CRJ-1000's coming into the mainstream seem more deadly than a handful of pilots that nobody cares about.

So what should the rest of us do? If you have a management he11 bent on destroying an airline, you're pretty much screwed. You can "push" for whatever you want- if your management says "no" then what do you do short of walking?
 
So what should the rest of us do? If you have a management he11 bent on destroying an airline, you're pretty much screwed. You can "push" for whatever you want- if your management says "no" then what do you do short of walking?
Its called "The Final Option" if you aren't willing to burn the place to the ground, management will continue to have it's way with you. You forget at your own peril, management has more to lose than you do. Those evil toolbags will take your future, past and wont be happy till you are forced to sell your kids into sex slavery. I would think there is gotta be at least one Barrett owner who is gonna snap in the future and check his long range accuracy. The great irony is, this job isn't worth doing time for, so the execs are safe.
PBR
 
You are the problem. You are the source of the gut punching. You are financing your company's ability to cut the throat of the competition and putting more pilots on the street. Do you think that an american could start an airline in Great Britian and undercut the industry with low pay and work rules? This airline is B.S. Just because you get to fly a neat shiny "big" cool jet doesn't make you a professional.
 
It is travel subsidized by the town myrtle beach. Myr is a top tourist destination but is underserved by airlines.

Jetblue had the contract and VA came in and undercut us for the contract.

Kind of IRONIC ? Jetblue the undercutter getting undercutted......
 
It is travel subsidized by the town myrtle beach. Myr is a top tourist destination but is underserved by airlines.

Jetblue had the contract and VA came in and undercut us for the contract.

Kind of IRONIC ? Jetblue the undercutter getting undercutted......

Well to add more irony, JB came in and undercut us in MYB. We undercut the guys before us, etc. etc. and guess what; we are now back with the same people (Myrtle beach Direct) and flying for them again, and taking over for some of the VA stuff.
 
It is travel subsidized by the town myrtle beach. Myr is a top tourist destination but is underserved by airlines.

Jetblue had the contract and VA came in and undercut us for the contract.

Kind of IRONIC ? Jetblue the undercutter getting undercutted......
Undserved by airlines, huh? I guess that USAir, COntinental, ASA etc. aren't holding up their end of the bargain. Its not underserved. There are lots of open seats both on and off season each day. I have been a commuter there off and on for the last 2 years.
 
Business travellers are not ponying up the money for premium cabin service, which is our bread and butter.

Bwaha...bwahahah.......bwahahahahahaha

Premium service? I experienced 14 hours and 45 minutes of United's "Premium" service from LAX to Hong Kong in business class last year. I've had root canals that were less painful.

Tilton runs a truly crappy airline and all the whining in the world about LCC's won't change that.
 
I'll say it again regarding pay, years ago at Pan Am and at NWA a senior pilot could buy a new Cadillac at a months "take home pay". Today that's $50,000 give or take a few thousand. That's a gross pay of $720,000/YEAR! Ask yourself if your pay is anywhere near that? As a profession with all that we have to contend with, security, responsibility, training, customer service, and professionalism, are we getting paid what we are worth to the traveling public ?

( If a surgeon operates on one person/day, they have 360 patients/ year lives in their hands. How many people/day do you have pass through your hands in a year?
Are you worth what a surgeon is paid ? How many lives do you have pass through your hands in a year? How much should you be paid for that responsibility ?

As a profession, we should be compensated for our responsibility, training, and professionalism.

As an airline, we need to take a hard look at how we view our profession. And our responsibility to the traveling public who place their lives in our trained hands.

How much should we be compensated for our expertise.

If given the choice, would you chose the brain surgeon who is paid 7.50/hour or the Brain surgeon who is paid $750/ hour for your brain operation. The answer is simple, you would go with the more expensive surgeon, because your life is in their hands.
 
You and I both know that but unfortunately this industry is all to aware that they can get away with taking some schmuck with 70k in his pocket and turn him into a 16k a year pilot in 300 hrs..

There are bright spots in an otherwise cloudy sky however. These 90 day wonders CANT GET FINANCING and or their wealthy parents are quickly going broke denying junior the chance to work a parent subsidized career

the smaller flight schools are all going or have gone out of business even before the the collapse because of high insurance costs..

The larger ones seem to be better at stealing money and going bankrupt than they are at actually pumping out qualified candidates.

Also you never know the govt may consider minimum rates if planes continue to lawn dart with poorly qualified crews at the controls..

I waould say that a guy with over 5000tt and jet time in his 30/40's is in a good position to see some decent gains in his/her career with the upcoming attrition and lack of new qualified crews
 
Aren't the large airlines like Delta, NWA, US, Continental, and SWA a bigger threat to UAL's profits than small carriers like VA, Allegiant, Skybus? Don't they compete directly with you guys on many more routes, thus taking money away from your own company? Aren't pilot wages only cut when a company is not profitable? When has management ever cut pilot wages on a profitable company? I think you guys are directing your anger at the wrong people. If you truly want to insult those with a direct influence on your own salary, you should be insulting your biggest competitors.
 
Aren't the large airlines like Delta, NWA, US, Continental, and SWA a bigger threat to UAL's profits than small carriers like VA, Allegiant, Skybus? Don't they compete directly with you guys on many more routes, thus taking money away from your own company? Aren't pilot wages only cut when a company is not profitable? When has management ever cut pilot wages on a profitable company? I think you guys are directing your anger at the wrong people. If you truly want to insult those with a direct influence on your own salary, you should be insulting your biggest competitors.

Careful this makes too much sense.
Also, pilots hate it when other pilots moves into the left seat as a new hires or within a few months/years. Because that is just not right.
 
Careful this makes too much sense.
Also, pilots hate it when other pilots moves into the left seat as a new hires or within a few months/years. Because that is just not right.

Oh yes...."Me get to be captain on big shinny jet. Me so excited cause I can get into the cockpit while still wearing my backpack. Me so happy, I'll do this job for freeeee!!"
 
Aren't the large airlines like Delta, NWA, US, Continental, and SWA a bigger threat to UAL's profits than small carriers like VA, Allegiant, Skybus? Don't they compete directly with you guys on many more routes, thus taking money away from your own company? Aren't pilot wages only cut when a company is not profitable? When has management ever cut pilot wages on a profitable company? I think you guys are directing your anger at the wrong people. If you truly want to insult those with a direct influence on your own salary, you should be insulting your biggest competitors.

The major airlines you speak of do not pay walmart wages to their employees and then use the windfall to go into new markets and subsidize extremely low fares. Allegiant sucks too, but at least they're getting raises and the company isn't trying to use the low wages to screw other companies. You VA losers are just happy to take any wage to go fly a shinny jet. Weak.
 
ok.....I will say this...(as if anyone cares) if you're furloughed and took this job at VA only to put food on the table, then I can understand. If you quit another job to work at VA, then you're a piece of sh!t and the absolute virus and the plague of this indusrty.
 
( If a surgeon operates on one person/day, they have 360 patients/ year lives in their hands. How many people/day do you have pass through your hands in a year?
Are you worth what a surgeon is paid ? How many lives do you have pass through your hands in a year? How much should you be paid for that responsibility ?

That is so laughable. Comparing yourself in education to a doctor. Did I miss the ad for "be a professional doctor in 90 days, (no high school degree required)" ad? After college, that is if you went to college, did you compete with the most academically successful minds at your school for the chance to go on for eight more years of education and residency and then maybe throw in another four years for a fellowship. Basically studying and training until you are at least thirty years old.

As far as liability goes, do you own your own airline business? Are you employing a staff of two dozen? Do you own the terminal you fly out of? Do you own the airplane and equipment needed to operate it? Are you paying tens of thousands of dollars a year in "pilot" malpractice insurance in case your last hard landing caused someone injury?

Just sit in your seat when they tell you its your turn to work. You are so much closer to the bus driver end of liability and financial risk than the high risk/high reward financial end of a doctor.

Rant over.
 
( If a surgeon operates on one person/day, they have 360 patients/ year lives in their hands. How many people/day do you have pass through your hands in a year?
Are you worth what a surgeon is paid ? How many lives do you have pass through your hands in a year? How much should you be paid for that responsibility ?

That is so laughable. Comparing yourself in education to a doctor. Did I miss the ad for "be a professional doctor in 90 days, (no high school degree required)" ad? After college, that is if you went to college, did you compete with the most academically successful minds at your school for the chance to go on for eight more years of education and residency and then maybe throw in another four years for a fellowship. Basically studying and training until you are at least thirty years old.

As far as liability goes, do you own your own airline business? Are you employing a staff of two dozen? Do you own the terminal you fly out of? Do you own the airplane and equipment needed to operate it? Are you paying tens of thousands of dollars a year in "pilot" malpractice insurance in case your last hard landing caused someone injury?

Just sit in your seat when they tell you its your turn to work. You are so much closer to the bus driver end of liability and financial risk than the high risk/high reward financial end of a doctor.

Rant over.

That is the porblem of aviation in a nutshell

Pilot's believe they are as smart as lawyers and doctors,
and lawyers and doctors believe they can fly high performance aircraft.
 
( If a surgeon operates on one person/day, they have 360 patients/ year lives in their hands. How many people/day do you have pass through your hands in a year?
Are you worth what a surgeon is paid ? How many lives do you have pass through your hands in a year? How much should you be paid for that responsibility ?

That is so laughable. Comparing yourself in education to a doctor. Did I miss the ad for "be a professional doctor in 90 days, (no high school degree required)" ad? After college, that is if you went to college, did you compete with the most academically successful minds at your school for the chance to go on for eight more years of education and residency and then maybe throw in another four years for a fellowship. Basically studying and training until you are at least thirty years old.

As far as liability goes, do you own your own airline business? Are you employing a staff of two dozen? Do you own the terminal you fly out of? Do you own the airplane and equipment needed to operate it? Are you paying tens of thousands of dollars a year in "pilot" malpractice insurance in case your last hard landing caused someone injury?

Just sit in your seat when they tell you its your turn to work. You are so much closer to the bus driver end of liability and financial risk than the high risk/high reward financial end of a doctor.

Rant over.

Yep, you're an idiot. The tools on here selling out this profession is easy and low key are probably the ones most likely to crash an airplane. Ignorance and arrogance especially among older pilots who had prior careers somewhere else, made a small fortune, and have no care in the world for a good wage especially if lucky enough to be hired at the right time to obtain a good schedule. I bet the Colgan Captain also thought this was an easy job requiring limited knowledge as he casually joked around up until the global news leading story of a deadly stall. Even congress is smart enough to hold hearings on the low pay, poor work schedules and poor training, but some of our own like yourself will piss on your own chances of being respected.
 
Yep, you're an idiot. The tools on here selling out this profession is easy and low key are probably the ones most likely to crash an airplane. Ignorance and arrogance especially among older pilots who had prior careers somewhere else, made a small fortune, and have no care in the world for a good wage especially if lucky enough to be hired at the right time to obtain a good schedule. I bet the Colgan Captain also thought this was an easy job requiring limited knowledge as he casually joked around up until the global news leading story of a deadly stall. Even congress is smart enough to hold hearings on the low pay, poor work schedules and poor training, but some of our own like yourself will piss on your own chances of being respected.


I'm with the idiot.
 
( If a surgeon operates on one person/day, they have 360 patients/ year lives in their hands. How many people/day do you have pass through your hands in a year?
Are you worth what a surgeon is paid ? How many lives do you have pass through your hands in a year? How much should you be paid for that responsibility ?

That is so laughable. Comparing yourself in education to a doctor. Did I miss the ad for "be a professional doctor in 90 days, (no high school degree required)" ad? After college, that is if you went to college, did you compete with the most academically successful minds at your school for the chance to go on for eight more years of education and residency and then maybe throw in another four years for a fellowship. Basically studying and training until you are at least thirty years old.

As far as liability goes, do you own your own airline business? Are you employing a staff of two dozen? Do you own the terminal you fly out of? Do you own the airplane and equipment needed to operate it? Are you paying tens of thousands of dollars a year in "pilot" malpractice insurance in case your last hard landing caused someone injury?

Just sit in your seat when they tell you its your turn to work. You are so much closer to the bus driver end of liability and financial risk than the high risk/high reward financial end of a doctor.

Rant over.

OK
1- most doctors don't own the hospital
2- doctor probably doesn't own even the table that will be used. some do but most don't.
3- The flight controls are my operating instruments.
4- If/when I make a mistake and it's critical 100+ people die.
5- Alot of pilots self insure through aopa alpa or what ever.
6- Semi anual checkrides that are carreer critical... doctor?
I could probably go on.


??Would you go under the knife of a surgeon who only had say 100hrs of school, or on the job training? What if you knew that he was on food stamps trying to make it to the next best paying job because it's the only way to make the "experience" to be a "real" doctor?

Are you willing to get into the tub of aluminum throttling along at hundreds of knots in sub zero temperatures with someone who knows just enough.

Those of us with the experience and time in this job deserve better. The profession deserves better.

We are worth as much if not more than doctors. After 6000 flight hours and 12+ years in the cockpit I am worth every penny, and my passengers will get to the destination safely.

You sir are wrong.
 
Trust me, I'm all for making the best living I can. All I'm saying is that comparing ourselves specifically to doctors in education and liability is weak at best.

OK
1- most doctors don't own the hospital
2- doctor probably doesn't own even the table that will be used. some do but most don't.
3- The flight controls are my operating instruments.

With the exception of ER and hospitalists, most doctors don't work exclusively at a hospital. The rest of them own, staff, outfit, and insure office space in the buildings around the hospital. Trust me, it ain't cheap. Wait, you do own your own flight kit though. Did you do it through payroll deduction, 25 bones a week?

4- If/when I make a mistake and it's critical 100+ people die.
5- Alot of pilots self insure through aopa alpa or what ever.
6- Semi anual checkrides that are carreer critical... doctor?
I could probably go on.

Same with the metro rail driver. Self insure for what? Does it cost you $50-80K a year to do so? Doctors do have peer review and law suits. Both of those will run the bad ones out of the profession. Are your flights reviewed on a weekly basis by your peers and judgment passed on your decision making and outcome? Would you like to work in an environment where every flight you have people sizing up an angle to sue you personally, not just the company you work for?


??Would you go under the knife of a surgeon who only had say 100hrs of school, or on the job training? What if you knew that he was on food stamps trying to make it to the next best paying job because it's the only way to make the "experience" to be a "real" doctor?


No I wouldn't. However, if you have ever been to a "teaching hospital" with a residency program, you might have been treated by a doc like that. 80 plus hour work weeks, up 36-48 hours at a time working continuously. Anywhere from 4-8 years. All for 35-40k a year. (Heck, we start to tear up if we have to be on duty for 16 hours, and work for 8 of those). Don't worry though, there is an attending doctor (the captain) who is overseeing the residents from their pager. All this to gain experience to finish residency, go into private practice, and become board certified. I could probably go on.


Are you willing to get into the tub of aluminum throttling along at hundreds of knots in sub zero temperatures with someone who knows just enough.

Those of us with the experience and time in this job deserve better. The profession deserves better.

We are worth as much if not more than doctors. After 6000 flight hours and 12+ years in the cockpit I am worth every penny, and my passengers will get to the destination safely.

You sir are wrong.[/QUOTE


Like I said, I'm all for making a better living, but the barriers to entry as a pilot are so low that it is tough. I just find it amusing that we try to compare ourselves to doctors. I do value experience and when I travel, I try to stay on the mainline flights. Thanks for standing up for us, just try to find a closer example than a doc.

P.S. For God's sake man, use spell check. You aren't helping your cause.
 
I waould say that a guy with over 5000tt and jet time in his 30/40's is in a good position to see some decent gains in his/her career with the upcoming attrition and lack of new qualified crews

tease
 

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